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Hello all. I've started my conversion to the dark side, much to my friends , and have spent about a month practicing with long pips on my backhand, chopping as much as possible to get used to it as fast as possible. I've gotten a degree of consistency after figuring out how to chop with long pips on my own and with the help of the internet. (there aren't any long pips users at my school or my club) But people don't seem to have too much difficulty looping back my chops. I got some TSP Curl P-1 0.5mm and tried it out last night, began on Galaxy Neptune 0.7mm pinkish sponge, and the ~75 year old guy there who plays C-Pen said that chops from it seemed less "nasty" than the Neptune's, and had no problem just hitting them back in practice. Albeit I wasn't chopping that hard, but still! I read a lot of stuff about Curl and expected it to be very difficult to use and deadly, but it was really easy to pick up and use and apparently not hard to play against.

I figure there are two things I want to ask.

1. What long pips topsheet and sponge make for the heaviest backspin chops possible.

2. What is some advice on creating more deadly backspin on chops? I figure I'm not moving through the ball fast enough because I'm still new at it and kinda unsure about my motions, but I'm wondering if there's anything else, because I'm not getting any advice from around here.

Thanks!

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Most long pips don't generate much spin of their own, so if you're chopping off of no-spin hits or off of underspin, you're not going to get much underspin on the ball, at least not without a sponge (which I guess you have) and a very strong chopping motion. If you're chopping off of loops, however, even if you weren't doing an amazing job chopping, you should be getting some decent underspin just from the combination of the spin reversal and your chopping motion. One question: you said you're using the TSP Curl P-1. Do you mean the TSP Curl P-1R, or do you mean the TSP Bamboo Curl P1? I'm asking because the latter is a now-banned frictionless long pips rubber, while the former is a relatively high-friction long pips rubber that should be ideal for long-distance chopping if you can control it. Anyway, if you're using the P-1R (which I'll assume), it may have slightly less reversal than the Neptune did (though the Nepture also isn't known as a high-reversal rubber), which means you need to play it more actively, and if you're not putting enough chop on the ball, perhaps that accounts for your opponent's observation that it's less nasty than the Neptune (which may have generated a bit more underspin without you doing much to impart that underspin).

With long pips, I find that the chopping motion is a kind of forearm jolt through the point of contact while keeping the paddle pretty closed (i.e., not with its surface pointing up toward the ceiling) so that the pips can bend, with the follow-through being forward and downward. It's best to look at a few videos of someone chopping with long pips to get this right, and if you go to the video subsection of this forum, you should be able to find some. If you're just floating the ball back to the other side without really chopping, that might result in easy-to-loop ball for your opponent when you're using a low-reversal rubber. Note, though, that low-reversal long pips rubbers aren't bad, certainly not for long defense, and they can ultimately produce more underspin, but you have to play more actively with them.

Also, if you're playing a good-enough opponent, they will be able to loop back almost anything short of super-heavy chop, which it's easier to impart after chopping back a few loops in a row.

As for equipment, you had asked "what long pips topsheet and sponge make the heaviest backspin chops possible," and I'd actually say that something like the P1-R that you're using should be ideal IF YOU CAN CONTROL IT (it's known to be hard to control and is generally recommended for advanced players ). Another possibility that should be easier to handle is the Palio CK531a, which, with, say, a 1.0 sponge should be good for long defense. But ultimately, it sounds like the main issue is with your technique, not with the rubber. You said that you found it easy to control, but you said it doesn't seem to be doing much to the ball, and I'd guess that, most likely, if you're chopping off of loops and easily getting them back on the table but getting very little underspin, you might be just floating them back, which I actually think is a good place to start because it develops your feel so that, later, when you have the control down, you can start chopping more aggressively.

Finally, one practice session is usually not enough to learn how to use a rubber, especially one like the P1-R. Keep at it to see if you like it and can control it when you get the chopping motion down. Or else switch to something like the Palio, but then stick with it for awhile.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

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Excellent advice TraditionalTradesman!

Yes I think if you're not getting heavy backspin when you chop back a loop, you're not chopping down fast enough to overcome the spin of the ball. Once you do that though (if you're not already), you'll no only get more backspin, but you actually get more control as well.

Another important tip, if you don't know this already, is to brush the back of the ball as much as possible.

To get more spin, a grippier LP does help, and the p-1r is indeed quite a grippy one already. A thicker sponge helps too, but you'll generally lose some control.

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Thanks a lot for the pointers.

Yeah, what I have is the P-1R, I checked the ITTF database and it just doesn't have the R on the rubber itself and I bought it used.

I figured it was my technique more than anything. From all the reviews I read I figured the Curl would be hard to control and use but really deadly when I got it over, but it seemed to be the opposite. I guess my chops are just half hearted still. I've been focusing on trying to just get the correct motion down to get it back over, pouring over hours of video watching different pro choppers and then trial and error. I'm semi-aware of a lot of the bad habits I have, or things I don't do, like try to hit it under the table, move the racket faster, etc. I guess I just have to drill it into me. Really though I'd rather learn with something hard and start off slow with it than start off with something easy and master that then have to start over trying to master something else and step up.



With my personal errors out of the way, what are the best long pips for putting on really heavy backspin chops?

I read a single review saying that the new Giant Dragon Giant Long apparently puts on massive backspin and heard rumors that Joo is using Feint Long AG, and of course TSP Curl P-1R is good, are there any other rubbers that maybe one sided in their use, but excel in the chops?

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The Feint Long III is known as a pure chopping rubber.

The Xiom Guillotine that I use is very good for chopping, I find, but like some of these others, it's not super-easy to master.

I know some people like the Stiga Destroyer for chopping.

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Cloud and Fog 3 is also a good chopping rubber for me

Hi , I'm no rubber expert but i'm using LP for for deception ,survival, variation, and I can't find the right sponge (inverted) for my backhand

but I do know (as speedplay said) that variation with chopping is a bigger asset than just backspin. If you can only do a hard chop then it will be easy to learn to play against. (what you need is for them to be inconsistant, mishit, loop long)
some other advice I can give you is to get your returns long (a short return is much easier to attack) and aim more to the thier backhand so they have less options

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I had the same philosophy as you when it came to rubber selection. Why master a rubber only to know you're going to have to remaster another? The simple truth of the matter is it's often a learning curve where you can carry what you've learned with an "easier more friendly" rubber to one that requires more feel. Also, if you're pretty competitive (like me) you may get frustrated by the lack of success because a rubber like TSP P-1r is designed to be used with a very capable hand that understands how to get the most from it while keeping it under control.

I also tried this rubber too early and had some success and a lot of failures. That told me I needed to work more on my technique and worry less about rubbers for now. So I went back to the drawing board a little wiser (at least I hope ).

I'd also suggest taking note of your wrist action. If your wrist is stiff then you will be serving up more balls with little spin. Keep it nice and loose. If you really want to put some backspin on it, snap your wrist down through the contact.

Just my two cents for what they are worth.

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It sounds like you have P1, not P1-r

The "r" stands for revised. It was revised to meet new ITTF rules designed to kill off defenders, so that attackers could rule the world. (BTW these and a list of other rule changes ensured this actually happened.)

Regardless of whether you have TSP's P1, or the R version, the advice above to worry about your stroke, and not the rubber, is good. The world's very best choppers have (or still do) used P1-r, and there isn't anything that's a step up from it (unless you want to reduce your defensive strength, so that you can attack with your pips too), just preference variations, so your pips aren't the limitation.

PS I chopped with P1-r 0.5 for a while, and it isn't hard to control at all. The "hard to control" comments come from the days when TSP used a really hard sponge. Now, with standard soft sponge, it's no harder than anything else IMHO.

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I don't know anything about sponges as I don't use any.. However, the Phantom 007 is one of the spinniest long pips. I can't tell if it produces more chop than TSP CURL P1R but I have played against both rubbers and the Phantom 007 seemed to have more chop on it when it was used to chop against a dead ball than P1R. However, that also might have something to do with the user.. The Phantom 007 user was John Mark Wetzler, a high rated long pips chop-blocker and the P1R user was our Bogeyhunter.. I've played against both of them more than once and both of them were able to produce quite some chop with their rubbers (Bogeyhunter uses P1R with sponge and John Mark Wetzler uses Phantom 007 (which is OX)). I fed both of them dead balls into their backhand and when either one of them chopped against my dead balls, John Mark's chop would have more chop on it than Bogeyhunter's. I usually don't topspin into opponents pips, so I don't know how much chop would be on the ball when they would chop against topspin but I assume that both rubbers would be able to create a insane amounts of chop against topspin..

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That's interesting because it goes against conventional thought for OX vs sponge. Against deadballs, a sponged p1-r should be able to out spin an OX rubber...

As you said, a lot of it might come down to the user. Also it's possible Bogeyhunter was not trying to give you heavy spin back as that would allow you to use the spin against him...

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This is very possible.. However, bogeyhunter mixed up the spin very well.. He did give me some chop but also some dead balls.. He had a very good variation of spiin change which often made me block long when he mixed in dead balls..

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I've been looking too long for someone to use the phrase "pure chopping rubber". My search for such a rubber is finally over, thank you. Now the real question is, is it the best "pure chopping rubber".

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Feint Long III with 0.5mm sponge is very good for pure chopping, but for the price I prefer Dawei 388D-1 Quattro w/ 0.4mm sponge. Both work equally well imho except 388D-1 is a lot cheaper.
A pure chopping rubber is usually soft and very grippy, designed to chop balls that have dropped at least six-inch below table height. The challenge to use it properly is to constantly get yourself in position to let the ball drop to that level before you chop the ball... Against strong loopers that means you will be camping out at six-to twelve feet behind the table, so strong legs, agility and stamina are crucial. For most people who just play for fun and exercise I'd recommend other long pips that could be used for both chopping and blocking, such as Saviga V, Curl P-3 Alpha ox, Palio CK531A ox, etc., plus some other excellent ones recommended in this forum. These rubbers will allow you to stay closer to the table as they are less sensitive to incoming spin and speed. You won't be able to chop the ball as heavily or vary the spin as easily as Feint Long III, but you can make it up with more consistency and occasional of-the-bounce blocks that will carry some reversed spin to handcuff your opponent.

Hey:

Just a thought:

for a combi bat is it better to have an inverted/LP setup with an LP that reverses alot of the opponents spin or an LP that does not produce as much reversal (producing rather flat no-spin)?

I think that spin/no-spin sometimes is more effective than spin/spin. If someone really wanted alot of backspin on the backhand they could simply put on an inverted to max out the backspin.

Underpressure when you chop, you dont really get a chance to vary the spin off the LP side. I guess it's what the other guy is used to. I find dead balls to be more effective even if they expect them.

Just a thought...