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How should OOAK Forum continue?
Leave things are they are 74%  74%  [ 20 ]
The site just needs a facelift 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
The site needs a major upgrade with much more modern features 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 27
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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2023, 08:48 
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Eric Fountain wrote:
I noticed there is a 'Recent topics' section at the top of the mainpage - I don't remember if that was there before but that is definitely a good idea to help with how segmented the forum otherwise is (both good and bad).
Yes that's something that I implemented only a few weeks ago at the suggestion of some of our members. Since I always used the 'view active topics' link I didn't really appreciate the benefit of having this, but it's clearly paying off.

Eric Fountain wrote:
The site is fast and has a very clean design which I would say is the best feature. "Modern" redesigns tend to just add bloat and make things look like crap (random example if you remember how clean and efficient the PP shop design used to be and what they devolved it into these days instead) and/or attack you with ads.
I'm very happy to hear that, because a fast and clean design is what I've always aimed for, and I'm not always sure if people actually appreciate it. :oops:

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2023, 09:07 
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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2024, 01:38 
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This trend extends to choppers as well. Take, for instance, P1V, the successor to P1-R, which is perceived as notably inferior in performance. The landscape of defensive rubbers seems to have reached a point where the scope for substantial improvements is limited.

Interestingly, the only defensive rubber category sparking ongoing discussions is the frictionless anti. Its unique characteristics have created room for exploration and debate, providing a refreshing focal point in a domain where advancements may be more challenging to achieve. The ever-evolving dynamics of table tennis equipment keep enthusiasts engaged, and the current emphasis on frictionless anti-rubbers showcases the sport's adaptability to changing technologies and regulations.


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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2024, 03:14 
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cootuttermost wrote:
Take, for instance, P1V, the successor to P1-R, which is perceived as notably inferior in performance.


IMHO, this is one of those old wives' tales, making people believe that new things are inferior to the old ones. Victas has reported time and time again that it's identical to the P1R in terms of its structure. The only new thing is the logo. Many pros and semi-pros (arguably folks playing much higher level than us chatting on this forum) use it without any issues (Ma Te, Bluhm, Daniel Kleinert, Andres Avila, and lots of other Victas folks).

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PostPosted: 17 Jan 2024, 22:53 
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notfound123 wrote:
cootuttermost wrote:
Take, for instance, P1V, the successor to P1-R, which is perceived as notably inferior in performance.


IMHO, this is one of those old wives' tales, making people believe that new things are inferior to the old ones. Victas has reported time and time again that it's identical to the P1R in terms of its structure. The only new thing is the logo. Many pros and semi-pros (arguably folks playing much higher level than us chatting on this forum) use it without any issues (Ma Te, Bluhm, Daniel Kleinert, Andres Avila, and lots of other Victas folks).


I think you are responding to a bot. ;) Rather mechanical language in a post that has nothing to do with a topic, posted by a brand new account.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2024, 16:33 
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I voted to keep it like it is. Internet forums are less popular these days, but they are still valuable for discussions, sharing information, and building communities. No place is better to discuss alternative styles of play than OOAK. I hope it's around for many years to come. Thank you for everything!

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2024, 21:31 
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I think both alternatives that seems repetitive in the answer before can be good options.

As people said already, this forum is the most valuable source of information about many topics in Internet. Then, this is so important to keep it alive.

But, also, it would be so good to change the design in order to do it more accessible to new people. In general the community here is one of the best in internet, then it is cool to think in growing audience, but also in keeping it nice and kind.

As a recent subscriber of this forum, I have to say that takes time to get use to post in this HTML way. Couple of buttons for adding videos or pictures easily from certain webs can be so useful.

Also, making more accesible and graphic the profile of the other participants, letting them share some other content in their profiles, will be useful for learning about each other.

Those are the thoughts that came to my mind and I wanted to share with you noble friends.

Long Life Long Pips.

Regards.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2024, 17:18 
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haggisv wrote:
Regarding something different from scratch, thanks to member dunc we have created an OOAK server on Discord.

You can use this link to join: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g


I will have to admit, I really dislike Discord. It's more of a chatroom than a forum. The one I participated in had so many posts per day it was impossible to figure out what was going on. Most of the posts were just people chatting to each other, nothing of substance. Everything of consequence just gets buried quickly. I guess I'm really not into social media - I don't do Instagram or Twitter or Facebook.

There are a couple of things I'd like to see implemented here, though... one would be the ability to copy and paste images directly in the editor. (I do appreciate the <img> tag and the ability to paste in image links, but there are things such as screenshots that would be nice to be able to directly paste rather than have to work off a saved file.) Another would be the ability to use standard emojis (in a browser, Windows + .).

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2024, 18:37 
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Although I am 55 years old, I have been up to date on everything related to the Internet from my childhood to the present. No tool, and I mean NONE, provides more information, better organized and easily accessible than a forum. Forums in general have gone out of fashion, but anyone looking for extensive information on a topic ends up on a forum. Now the immediate and brief is in fashion (Insta, Face, Twitter...) and I have nothing against it, they have their virtues and their usefulness but when it comes to finding extensive, well-organized and classified information, they have nothing to do against a forum. YouTube is another thing that works very well as a complement to a forum but not as a substitute. I would leave things as they are, Regards.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2024, 19:11 
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loboestep wrote:
No tool, and I mean NONE, provides more information, better organized and easily accessible than a forum. Forums in general have gone out of fashion, but anyone looking for extensive information on a topic ends up on a forum.


100% agree. Discord is not even close.


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2024, 21:15 
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Diegox wrote:
As a recent subscriber of this forum, I have to say that takes time to get use to post in this HTML way. Couple of buttons for adding videos or pictures easily from certain webs can be so useful.
Regards.



I think this is a good point (referring to the user friendliness of using the forum). I am not sure if I am doing it wrong, but when I add pictures to my post I find myself having add and upload each picture individually, which is very archaic feeling (not to mention slow and troublesome). The forum also requires images only of a certain size, which I understand, since storage space costs, but I feel there could be an auto-shrink image option added, so photos can be added more conveniently.

People who have been using the web for 20 years or more are familiar with the HTML post format but it is seldom seen these days.

As for Discord, it seems to serve a different purpose - conversation between online, active lurkers - rather than repository of knowledge as one of this forum's main features.


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2024, 10:06 
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Only just seen this topic.

I joined years ago when I mainly played. I kept coming back for the banter and friendships I made through posting, traveling to meet forum members and pm messages I sent and received plus the information you could give / get back regarding equipment. I was an EJ :devil: and still am. Then my life direction changed as did my involvement in table tennis and I switched from playing to coaching. At that point the forum became less relevant to my needs. I guess I lived and experienced table tennis more in "person" than through an active forum and keyboard. Now, I've popped back as I've more time on my hands domestically. I'm sticking with coaching but I'm also starting to return to scratch the EJ itch and over the years I've book marked a number of topics which I can now revisit for information and research. In many ways, whilst the years have passed, there is still a familiarity with the same topics being discussed, like fashion, these repeat themselves.

What I do think is missing now though is the interaction and "heated" discussions that used to take place in this forum. Just have a look at Adham Shahara's topics and the strong feeling behind a lot of the posts there. Love him or hate him, his participation in that thread captured a lot of emotion between him and the forum and between forum members. Again with the introduction of the Plastic Ball, Dr. Torsten Küneth's presence on the forum and willingness to engage with forum members was a fantastic catalyst for emotive passionate debate. That type of presence and opportunity to connect with senior officials seems to be missing now.

I also, and I'm being probably contraversial here, don't think we have the same strength of characters / forum members willing to post and facilitate strong discussion. There were some old members I didn't get along with and who didn't get along with me (the friend and foe option came in useful :devil: ) but you couldn't fault the passion they had for the game, nor the strength of their opinions and argument - literally argument. And there were others who were extremely proactive posting member inclusive topics to engage forum members and draw out the shy. I'm not saying which category these membes fall into (friend or foe) but does anyone remember the likes of Roundrobin, Speedplay, AntiPip, hookshot, tatlwai, Baal, Bogeyhunter, Silver, Yuzuki, Der_Echte, Kees and many others, not to mention the unmentionable who were ultimately banned! :x Yes there are still characters, MNNB etc who remain but who are much quieter but there is and always has been a "niceness" to this forum which is both a credit to haggisv who is a good friend I can always rely on to offer help and advice although we rarely speak now - that should change - and a curse because it's almost "too nice and polite". A thin line.

Ultimately though, from my experience, video and youtube and watching the "pro's" play (which isn't necessarily a good way to improve your technique) and short attention spans seem much more prominant these days. The desire for an instant fix with limited effort. Posting takes time. It takes thought and a willingness to log in, think and type and importantly a need to bother to read responses. That willingness to listen to others, and read seems to be on the decline. Mmm, I wonder is anyone is still reading my post :D

Just take a look at the top forum members by "thanked" numbers. Not necessarily a good guide to the value a member adds to a forum, but the top 10 make interesting reading:

1 haggisv - still actively posting, though nowhere near as much as he used to :?:
2 iskandar taib - still active
3 Def-attack - last posted 23 Jan, 2024 but prior to that, only 1 other post since August 2023
4 Lorre - last visited 25 Jan, 2024 but prior to that only two posts in the previous 7 months
5 mynamenotbob - over 11'000 posts but only 4 in the last 6 months
6 Japsican - not visisted since 2022
7 pgpg - 9 posts in the last 5 months
8 Retriever - 4 posts in the last 7 months
9 Debater - this is my first post in the last 5 months
10 manofan - last posted Jan 2020

These 10 members alone (and I stopped at 10 as I've a life to lead outside here and it's late in the UK |-)) have contributed approximately 71'000 posts between them and apart form a couple, they've hardly been active in recent times. Within the top 150 contributers to this forum by way of posts made, only one member I can find has joined since Jan 2020 or later and that's merlin el mago.

Even the thread "introduce yourself" which was crafted partly to help encourage members to have the confidence to post has barely had any new members introduce themselves to the forum in the last 12 months.

So what's the point of my post? Yawn. |-)

Simple. This forum is great. It's a fantastic resource. It's almost become like a libray of knowledge. People go to libraries to read and be quiet, lost in their own worlds. They don't go to chat. You want more activity, encourage chatter, be more contraversial, loose some of the "niceness", elicit emotion in members, get the passions stirred up and maybe hide away some of the topics, out of sight, blocked. Make members create and discuss topics and content rather than rely on what's already here and foster more video content - I used to love watching video diaries, or videos of any member brave enough to put on show to the world how they actually played the game we all love.

And lastly, should we get hung up about the age thing and wanting to appeal to the younger generation? I'll share some analytics about the make up of one of my YouTube channels which has table tennis content. I've not uploaded any content to that channel for a long time so my activity is similar to here.

Current subscribers - 18,909

Over the last 28 days:

Region views by percentage
1. United States - 12.5%
2. UK - 9.2%
3. Indonesia - 6.8%
4. India - 6.3%
5. Philippines - 2.3%

Gender:
Female - 1.4%
Male - 98.7%

Age:
13 - 17 years 0%
18 - 24 years 1.2%
25 - 34 years 16%
35 - 44 years 33.2%
45 - 54 years 16.8%
55 - 64 years 14.1%
65+ years 18.7%

Top watched videos:
Of the top 10 watched videos, 5 were coaching videos and 5 were equipment testing. None were local league matches.

Now I think my channel's viewing age figures are actually quite representative of the age make up of our league with the exception we have a lot more youngsters, up to age 18 than suggested by my channels viewing figures. But the rest of the stats do reflect the playing ages of local league players and sadly the gender make up too. Table tennis at local league level in the UK is generally played by kids until they go away to University or start families and careers. This education and career stage covers 18 - mid 30's. Then their lives settle down, they have a bit more time and are more financially stable so return to playing, and then keep on playing until they either reach an age / physical condition where they can't take losing to people they used to beat and so give up, or their body calls time on active playing.

So are we right to try and focus on trying to attract the younger generation and if so, how?

Well, a deeper dive in to my channels stats show that my top video which is about coaching has a lifetime viewer age makeup of:

- 42.2% in the 18-24 age group,
- 39.2%in the 25-34 years age group,
- 13.8% in the 35-44 years age group and
- 4.8% in the 45-54 years age group.

So the coaching video has a much higher perentage of younger viewers compared to my subscribers who tend to be older viewers.

My second most watched video in the last 28 days, which is an equipment test video, has a lifetime viewer age make up as follows:

- 9.4% in the 13-17 years age group,
- 58.4% in the 18-24 years age group,
- 18% in the 25-34 years age group and
- 14.3% in the 35-44 years age group

Surprisingly not enough viewers in the older age groups where I have lots of subscribers actually watched the video to register as a percentage! Yikes. Bear in mind, the popularity of the video was based on the last 28 days viewing figures, but the actually viewing perecentages by age were based on total views since YouTube kept the latest format of stats on these videos (2019) and both these videos were uploaded years ago so will include viewing figures by my subscribers in that time and not just the last 28 days which would include very few subscribers.

The last stat I'll bore you with - cos I'm that way inclined in the early hours of Wednesday morning - is where my traffic comes from (how people find my videos).

My top coaching video had over 91% of it's lifetime views come from YouTube's own serch and browse and suggested videos features. External sources only (where videos had been embeded) accounted for only 2.3% and of that 2.3% OOAK forum was the top forum source with 69 views. To put that in to perspective, since these YouTube stats started on 1 January 2019, this video has had 301'232 views and only 69 came from the highest ranked table tennis forum.

My top equipment testing video has had over 84% of it's lifetime views come from YouTube's own search/browse/suggested functionality. However, external sources accounted for 11.7%, significantly higher than the coaching video. And of that 11.7%, whilst google search was by far the highes source, next was Table Tennis Daily's forum with 511 views, and third was OOAK forum with 399 and there were other forums in the top 10 external sources for this video.

Conclusion

So what does this mean for the future of OOAK forum.

The younger generation is more interested in coaching and getting better by playing than the older generation, yet this forums coaching forum (one thread aside) is very quiet. You want to bring youngsters back to the forum, create great technique and playing instructional content - maybe even share experiences of what it's like to progress through elite sport pathways (it's a real eye opener).

You want to encourage more active older age participation, foster fresh new discussions around equipment (even at the expense of hiding away existing content behind a privacy wall or even god forbid, dare I say it, a premium content paywall ;( or "private members" content only section - anyone remember how that went last time it was introduced :punch: ). How to encourage that activity, mmm, contraversy, interaction with forum members, get manufacturers to do Q&A again, whatever takes your fancy.

For me though, forum layout and tinkering with "usability" whilst valid ideas - if you can't use it, doesn't matter how good the content, people won't try to access that content - I personally find this forum already user friendly and very easy to navigate if I stick to simple things like the search function for key words, the use of bookmarks to remember relevant topics and the active topic function - always my goto search method. But remember, one of the reasons YouTube is so popular and people spend hours and hours on it is because it's like a rabit hole, so easy to get distracted and lost in the content that you end up watching videos you never had any intention of watching. Don't make this forum so easy to navigate that the joy of getting lost in unknown and wonderful topics is taken away. That said, you could guide the visitor to this forum better. The active threads option is a little bit like a "suggested" topic tool, but is there another way or facility in the forum toolkit that can suggest "relevant topics" to members based on their history of reading and searching for topics. A way of getting people lost in the joys of this forum. May I suggest anyone interested in heated debate, politics and civil war check out the Adham Sharara topics here:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4772

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5357

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8686

or if you fancy a bit of forum member ego massaging try "A new OOAK forum ranking" viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29251


Hey ho, so ends my one post a year, back in to the shadows I trundle.


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2024, 12:37 
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Dark Knight
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Wow, that's one hell of a post Debater! :up: I made it all the way to the end! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2024, 18:45 
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haggisv wrote:
... I made it all the way to the end! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't and I wrote it! :lol:


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2024, 01:32 
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I also read the whole of Debater's post, and agree with most of it. But being an old codger, I really hate the concept of the rabbit hole into which social media tries to draw us. I like to see stuff in which I am interested, and dislike the idea of being distracted from my path. (This relates more to YouTube algorithms than to forum content).

I look at this forum a few times a week, but frankly, I don't feel that I have a lot of knowledge to contribute. I like to see what people are interested in to some degree, but I actually dislike the aggressive nature of some arguments. I get really fed up with people complaining about ITTF rules which have been in place for over a quarter of a century. I spend a few minutes reporting spam, etc. I've only been playing since 2016, and really only in the lower local leagues. So I don't make many posts. I also wonder about the actual knowledge of some who do post, but am willing to believe that their self-belief is justified. For myself, I have been struggling with playing style, veering from defensive with over-sized bats with LP on BH to to all out attack with a custom built SDC with Dignics 80 and Glayzer, which is how I like to play, but at 72, it's not so easy to maintain. Is that useful to anyone? I don't know.

Anyway, OOAK is the only forum I look at with any frequency. TTD and MyTT have both dropped by the wayside, although I do like the YouTube videos featuring the TTD Team. I like to watch high level play, and used to love the availability of matches on the old ITTF video pages. Now I need to subscribe to WTT on Youtube, and thus get continually offered huge numbers of lower level matches, so I find myself using the subscribe button as a frequently used on/off button, to thin out my subscription pages.

TL:DR The forum is fine, and any tweaks should be incremental rather than revolutionary.

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