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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 19 May 2021, 11:22 
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0x556c69 wrote:
Hubeer wrote:
I was going to write a detailed reply thinking you are being serious.
Until I understood your incredible sense of humor & sarcasm

It is incredible indeed, how misunderstandings come to be. I would never dare to use sarcasm when there is place for such.

If you disagree with my statement, please explain, why would world class players use different stuff? There are professionals using 802, Spectol, Super Spinpips, Speedy Soft (even the D'tecs version), 8228, Challenger Attack, Do Knuckle, and I don't not what else for chopping. Some even switch from one to another.

I'm waiting for the day someone agrees with me that in the end it boils down to skill, not equipment.


Sorry waste of my time banging head against a stone wall over and over.
Only thing I can say is that we are in this mess because lot of people actually do agree with you & think like you do.
Bye


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 19 May 2021, 13:22 
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Hubeer wrote:
0x556c69 wrote:
Hubeer wrote:
I was going to write a detailed reply thinking you are being serious.
Until I understood your incredible sense of humor & sarcasm

It is incredible indeed, how misunderstandings come to be. I would never dare to use sarcasm when there is place for such.

If you disagree with my statement, please explain, why would world class players use different stuff? There are professionals using 802, Spectol, Super Spinpips, Speedy Soft (even the D'tecs version), 8228, Challenger Attack, Do Knuckle, and I don't not what else for chopping. Some even switch from one to another.

I'm waiting for the day someone agrees with me that in the end it boils down to skill, not equipment.


Sorry waste of my time banging head against a stone wall over and over.
Only thing I can say is that we are in this mess because lot of people actually do agree with you & think like you do.
Bye


I did not mean to come off as rude. Simple fact is people keep comparing players of totally unequal skill levels to evaluate equipment or players constantly want to do something exactly like a pro does though this may not be their style at all.

I totally agree that equipment may not matter much at all if you have no skill. But the critical element is your playing style. Lot of amateurs live in a fantasy world that they can play like Ma Long if you use equipment he uses or copy his playing style exactly. But your own playing style may not anywhere similar to Ma Long.

You claim professional players use certain stuff like short pips. But is short pips compatible to your playing style ? Also for at least 75% of humans (may be as high as 90%) the forehand playing style may be very different from their backhand. Yet every robotNazi wants you believe that you can be a two winged looper like Waldner or Ma Long. (I have fallen for this trap myself for the first 15 wasted years of my life in my sorry attempt to use smooth rubber both wings because I believed the robotNazis that this is the only and proper way to play table-tennis).

So the most absurd things you said are that equipment does not matter (if you have skill). Yes Waldner can beat even an advanced player using a shoe or frozen fish as racket. But what does that really prove ? NOTHING. Because you are comparing a mere human to a super-human. But at any given equal skill level every single human has their own playing style, though you may narrow down to some simplistic groups like looper, blocker, chopper, lobber, hitter etc. At the minute stroke-mechanics level, no two humans really EXACTLY hit the ball or loop the ball or chop the ball or lob the ball or block the ball exactly the same way. Unlike harbat domain table-tennis, sponge domain table-tennis allows you to enhance your playing style choosing the right rubber as closely as possible (on your backhand & forehand, which could be very very differnt) to your playing style.

It does not matter what professional player uses short pips (for chopping) . It is not entirely farfetched that they may not be using the wrong rubber. The very initial reason for invention of long pips is to enhance chopping defensive play. Yes there are few players at the top here and there who use short pips for chopping, but the best of the best in top 10 in the past (and stayed there) now in men's game and most women have only used long-pips after invention of long pips.
Don't try to confuse the issue > I am ONLY saying short pips is garbage for chopping but also understand that short pips is the very best for block & smash style & specialized pips-out hitters are the most natural-born of all table-tennis players but that style is almost as extinct as combo-choppers.

I am also not saying that you cannot chop at all with short pips period. It is always possible that one may be an all around players doing a little bit of everything (chopping, hitting, lobbing , blocking etc) using just short pips or just inverted. In that case they are not full-time dedicated choppers, they are all around players. It is possible that there exists such players at all skill levels including pro.

Anybody at any skill level can use any rubber if that is what the you enjoy. I am not knocking that. But from a competitive viewpoint, you have to choose rubbers & blades that closely match your own playing styles (backhand & forehand) to maximize your potential, not because Waldner or Ma Long or Joo Sehyuk or Jiang Ji Liang etc use it. But most manufacturers understand the fantasies of amateur players and prey on that fantasy, of course this not limited to table-tennis or any sport. That is just normal marketing strategy .

Also do you really think Ma Long or Waldner is using the exact same blade and rubber that the manufacturer sells you ? SERIOUSLY ? Most professional players get highly customized equipment though the logo may say Butterfly Tenergy or Donic Waldner etc.

So in summary, at more or less equal skill level, equipment not only matters in table-tennis a whole lot, but matters lot more than in most sports due to complex speed & spins of this sport. Some say this bad for the sport & I agree a little but as far as I am concerned it is more good than bad as it allows me express my individuality by choosing the right blade and right rubber for my backhand and probably a different right rubber for my forehand.
Yes you can adjust to some extent whether the sponge is too thick or handle is different or blade is too stiff, but there is a limit to how much you can adjust if you want to compete at your best levcel.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 20 May 2021, 08:25 
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Hubeer wrote:
Simple fact is people keep comparing players of totally unequal skill levels to evaluate equipment or players constantly want to do something exactly like a pro does though this may not be their style at all.

I do not talk about others, and I would never compare myself with top level professionals. I tried several styles (loop attack, close to table hitting, chop defense, allround) with all sorts of equipment. Result: after some time, usually 3-6 months, I reach the same level and stay there. So in my experience, equipment and even playing style (!) do not matter at all.

Hubeer wrote:
You claim professional players use certain stuff like short pips.

Yes, I dare. Falck, Hou, Yuto, Wang, the Japanese girls, lots of very good players use short pips. Even choppers. So what? It works. At all levels, even for me down the ladder. For the matter, same as long pips or Tackiness C or whatever.

Hubeer wrote:
So the most absurd things you said are that equipment does not matter (if you have skill).

Never said, that specific skill is required to use some equipment. Slap any rubber on any blade, get used to, train the specific moves and there you are. I dare say, almost every player would reach her or his natural level with every style and equipment. Depending on her or his natural disposition (laidback, nervous, impatient, eager, ... name some) she or he may like one style or equipment more than the other.

Hubeer wrote:
Don't try to confuse the issue > I am ONLY saying short pips is garbage for chopping

Uh, am I missing something? I'm doing something that can't be done. Great, I like it. Btw, my short pip chop is different from my long pips one, but in total the results are the same. Does this mean long pips are garbage for chopping as well (last lp has been Curl P1R 1,0)?

Hubeer wrote:
I am also not saying that you cannot chop at all with short pips period. It is always possible that one may be an all around players doing a little bit of everything (chopping, hitting, lobbing , blocking etc) using just short pips or just inverted. In that case they are not full-time dedicated choppers, they are all around players. It is possible that there exists such players at all skill levels including pro.

Isn't this the contrary of the above cited statement? Maybe I don't understand correctly - probably some language issue. All defensive players at all times have been able to attack and used it. Ok, let's skip Chtchetinine. Nothing is wrong with an allround style. I especially like the japanese player Satoshi Aida. He chops at highest level with both sides inverted. Amazing. And just when an opponent thinks he has time to do whatever attackers do, he's confronted with a nasty backhand topspin or loop kill from forehand.

Hubeer wrote:
But from a competitive viewpoint, you have to choose rubbers & blades that closely match your own playing styles (backhand & forehand) to maximize your potential

Well, getting older and more experienced tends to lead to style changes. This does not mean that one style is inferior to another. In fact, as double sided looper in my younger days I was much weaker than I am now. Sort of evolution. How goes the saying? Something like "If you are not a socialist at 18, you got no heart; if you still are a socialist at 30, you got no brain". (No offense meant to any socialist out there, the quote was just to make a point - socialism has its good sides, philosophically).

Hubeer wrote:
Also do you really think Ma Long or Waldner is using the exact same blade and rubber that the manufacturer sells you ? SERIOUSLY ?

More or less, yes. Rubber surfaces must be the same. Concerning blades, well, I really think Boll uses his own blade, Ma Long as well. And Waldner has been seen visiting an arbitrary shop and selecting blades (his own model). Sponges are another story, ok.

Hubeer wrote:
So in summary, at more or less equal skill level, equipment not only matters in table-tennis a whole lot, but matters lot more than in most sports due to complex speed & spins of this sport.

Yes, equipment matters - this I would never deny. But different equipment does not mean better or worse. Do you think, Ma Long, Boll, etc would be stronger or weaker if they would use another blade? Really? Boll used Srvier in speed glue times, then Tenergy, now Dignics. Regardless of equipment, he's always been top ten player. Provide him with H3, he would stay top ten. Give Ma Long Tenergy, he still would be number one. Give me Dignics, national H3, or any tensor rubber, I would still not be able to control the game.

Hubeer wrote:
Yes you can adjust to some extent whether the sponge is too thick or handle is different or blade is too stiff, but there is a limit to how much you can adjust if you want to compete at your best levcel.
I disagree. The potential of adjustment is enormous. In the end, as said before, it boils down to skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 21 May 2021, 00:59 
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0x556c69 wrote:
So in my experience, equipment and even playing style (!) do not matter at all.

So what you are saying is that, if Jiang JiLiang played Waldner, both using smooth rubber (instead of Jiang using short pips), Jiang has a prayer (if according to your crazy argument, Jiang can adjust to using smooth rubber after a week or a month or an year of training using smooth rubber) ?
So what you are saying is that, if Waldner played Jiang JiLiang, both using short pips (instead of Waldner using smooth rubber), Waldner has a prayer (if according to your crazy argument, Waldner can adjust to using short pips after a week or month or an year of training using short pips)?

At any given (more or less) equal skill level (not comparing a pro to a beginner) every human has only one blade & rubbers that as closely matches to their very distinct playing style on their forehand or backhand. And no rubber blade is going to work equally well against all opponents with all styles even at the pro level. You make choices to choose what is best for you. In your case you just don’t seem to want to because you have convinced yourself that equipment does not matter.

0x556c69 wrote:
Hubeer wrote:
You claim professional players use certain stuff like short pips.

Yes, I dare. Falck, Hou, Yuto, Wang, the Japanese girls, lots of very good players use short pips. Even choppers. So what? It works. At all levels, even for me down the ladder. For the matter, same as long pips or Tackiness C or whatever.


I have already explained this. I completely understand Falck using short pips. Because Falck uses it as a primary weapon. Every rubber type has a primary purpose. For short-pips it is block & smash if say Jiang or Gao Jun. In case of Falck or Christian Carlsson it is Smash & loop style.

You are saying “it works” for others. Works to what extent ? Simply because a pro uses a certain rubber it does not make it the best for them. You seem to think simply because a pro uses a certain rubber (& their coach recommends that) does not mean it is the right choice for them. I have seen in lots of cases where coaches, based on their own personal experiences, playing styles and personal prejudices, recommending wrong blades & rubbers for their students either as an innocent mistake or deliberate coaching malpractice.

Take for example German Choper Irene Ivancan who uses Butterfly Joo Sehyak blade & Butterfly Challenger short pips on backhand. She may be hitting with low level pros but against the best of the best like Ding Ning , she almost never hits with short pips. You think she has a prayer against Ding Ning just chopping using short pips ?
She is probably contractually obligated to use Butterfly but the Joo Sehyak blade she uses is garbage blade for most choppers. (I am not going to get into this. I discussed this in another thread).

IMO I strongly feel she may be much better off using Feint Long 2 or 3 (if she has to use Butterfly by contract). I strongly suspect she is using short pips due to robotNazi pressures because in some countries like Germany, Sweden, France, India, Nigeria, Vietnam , Phillipines, Egypt, USA, New Zealand etc, I strongly suspect long pips and anti users are very much hated (at least on men’s side) but in many other countries like UK, Japan , Korea and Australia they are more tolerant of long-pips and anti. I read somewhere that German chopper Englebert Huging was so pressured by people that he voluntarily used two color racket even before the two color rule of 1983. (Funny thing is that Scholer made a video before the two color rule at around the same time coaching how to twiddle a combo racket with same black rubber both sides. But suddenly Scholer found religion and God (Thanks to Dr.Neubauer) and went nuts against long-pips over and over) .

Also keep in mind that just because anyone can win using short pips neither means they are winning just because short pips nor that short pips is the best for them. Take Hou Yingchao. I don’t think at all that he wins because of short pips only. He has other aspects such as a wicked forehand side-spin hook loop among other things. I am not sure why he went to short pips but I think if he had stuck with long pips he may have stayed at the level of Joo Sehyuk at top 10 for a long time.

Simple because you managed to fail and stay at the same rating level no matter what rubber / blade you use is not proof that equipment does not matter. Your failure is not all ONLy due to equipment choices though it plays a vital part. There are other things involved. So many robotNazis get frustrated against long pips & they themselves try it for a day or two & realize how hard it is and then give up and go back to badmouthing long-pips


0x556c69 wrote:
I dare say, almost every player would reach her or his natural level with every style and equipment.

Thanks for the laughs

0x556c69 wrote:
Uh, am I missing something? I'm doing something that can't be done. Great, I like it. Btw, my short pip chop is different from my long pips one, but in total the results are the same. Does this mean long pips are garbage for chopping as well (last lp has been Curl P1R 1,0)?

Yes you are very seriously missing something
You think you are doing that cannot be done , but sadly you are not. If the overall results are the same, it is not just due to your choice of pips. Neither does it prove short pips is just as good for chopping as long pips.

0x556c69 wrote:
Does this mean long pips are garbage for chopping as well (last lp has been Curl P1R 1,0)?

I don’t understand the logic of this argument. Simply because you “think” you are so freaking great using short pips does not prove long pips is garbage for chopping. I never said from the over all sense that short pips is not meant for chopping defense style. I never said there cannot be very very very rare exceptions but I also doubt you are one of them.


0x556c69 wrote:
Hubeer wrote:
I am also not saying that you cannot chop at all with short pips period. It is always possible that one may be an all around players doing a little bit of everything (chopping, hitting, lobbing , blocking etc) using just short pips or just inverted. In that case they are not full-time dedicated choppers, they are all around players. It is possible that there exists such players at all skill levels including pro.

Isn't this the contrary of the above cited statement? Maybe I don't understand correctly - probably some language issue. All defensive players at all times have been able to attack and used it. Ok, let's skip Chtchetinine. Nothing is wrong with an allround style. I especially like the japanese player Satoshi Aida. He chops at highest level with both sides inverted. Amazing. And just when an opponent thinks he has time to do whatever attackers do, he's confronted with a nasty backhand topspin or loop kill from forehand.


No it is not contrary. There is no language issue. There are specialist (pro) choppers (who chop 99% against players at equal skill level not against someone far below them) just as specialist short-pips hitters (who may block & smash 99% of time against players at their level).

But all around style players are different and wherever did I say that all around style is wrong (but I do say that the psychotic fantasy that lots of table-tennis players have that they can play an all around style but hardly ever practice for that, is crazy). Ok is Satoshi Aida is a specialist chopper ? Absolutely not. Yes he has built his game around chopping but that does not make him a specialist chopper like the last great two-winged specialist choppers like Norio Takashima (or sadly even Eberhard Scholer). But what is Aida’s his highest level ? At the top 10 , like Joo Sehyuk (or Chen Xinhua or Li GunSang) ? I think not.

BTW please show me videos of top 50 specialist choppers attacking more than a few times from the long-pips side (I never said they do not attack from smooth rubber side) against other top 100 pro players (not against top 1000 players) .

Maybe Satishi Aida should take your advice and try short pips both sides or anti both sides or long-pips both sides for an year and he would still stay at the same level. Hey you said equipment does not matter. To go one step further, since equipment does not matter, why don’t ITTF mandate that we all use 1.5mm smooth rubber both sides ? Won’t it make it easier for all concerned ? Hey equipment does not matter afterall

You are confusing your fantasy of wanting to be an all around superstar table-tennis athlete (like maybe Waldner) with the reality of specialized playing styles with specialized playing styles and their very specific rubber, blade needs.

Another problem is that lot of amateurs notice isolated new rare examples like Aida & Hou and that becomes the new fad. I am not saying that revolutionary new approaches by pro players applicable to all levels of players is NEVER possible but extremely unlikely

0x556c69 wrote:
This does not mean that one style is inferior to another

You are putting words in my mouth . When & where did I ever say that ?

0x556c69 wrote:
Do you think, Ma Long, Boll, etc would be stronger or weaker if they would use another blade? Really? Boll used Srvier in speed glue times, then Tenergy, now Dignics. Regardless of equipment, he's always been top ten player. Provide him with H3, he would stay top ten. Give Ma Long Tenergy, he still would be number one. Give me Dignics, national H3, or any tensor rubber, I would still not be able to control the game.

I thought this discussion was about short-pips & long-pips . But you are just comparing two rubbers of a totally different type (smooth) but just different brands (Tenergy & Hurricane) trying to prove your wrong premise ? What the hell ?
So sticking to the point of totally different rubber types, yes I do think Ma Long or Boll would not even be in top 100 if they used short pips even on one side and trained an year and they probably won’t be in the top 1000 if they used short pips both sides, just as Jiang Liang or He Zhiwen would probably not be in the top 100 if they trained with smooth rubber for an year or just as Joo Sehyuk would not be in be top 100 if he used smooth rubber both sides.

Or maybe Ma Long can use a defensive blade & he would still stay in the top 1000 :clap: :|
0x556c69 wrote:
I disagree. The potential of adjustment is enormous. In the end, as said before, it boils down to skill.

Ok you enjoy your fantasy.
Or should I say "You win. I was totally wrong. We always had short pips from hard bat days. Short pips is best for chopping. All choppers switch from long pips to short pips. All hitters switch from short pips to inverted. All loopers switch from inverted to long-pips"


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 21 May 2021, 05:49 
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Hubeer wrote:
Don't try to confuse the issue > I am ONLY saying short pips is garbage for chopping but also understand that short pips is the very best for block & smash style & specialized pips-out hitters are the most natural-born of all table-tennis players but that style is almost as extinct as combo-choppers.

I am also not saying that you cannot chop at all with short pips period. It is always possible that one may be an all around players doing a little bit of everything (chopping, hitting, lobbing , blocking etc) using just short pips or just inverted. In that case they are not full-time dedicated choppers, they are all around players. It is possible that there exists such players at all skill levels including pro.



This thread has the title "Chopping short pips?". You have made it clear that you think it is not a good idea to chop with short pips. That is one of your contributions. Some of the other contributors to this thread actually wants to discuss technique and rubbers for chopping with short pips. If you want to contribute to that, please do so. But if you only want to convince others that it is not a good idea to chop with short pips, please do that in another thread. This way we can keep this one more accessible for the ones seeking information and inspiration for chopping with short pips. And the ones who wants more info on why it is not a good idea can look up your new thread (if you choose to start one) and find information on that subject there.

In other words, keep your posts more on topic, please :clap: .

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 23 May 2021, 03:12 
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New session today with 1.5 mm RITC 802. It works rather good for chopping but unlike long pips it is more easy to get massive back spin on first chop. Against nex loop, if it is a spinny one, it can take lots of force in the chop to keep the ball rotating. You can keep the chop low and nice but making it loaded with back spin is difficult the second chop with this rubber. But there are so much other stuff to do with these pips, line side spin chops, or just floating the ball back (it looks line a chop but comes with almost top spin). Also serving is very goog with these pips, since you can do fast floating serve or rather spinny serves. Opponents are having a hard time reading the spin from these pips, and that is fun :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 23 May 2021, 05:23 
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I do always switch back and forth between sp and lp. On my amateur level I can master and enjoy both rubber categories. The older I get the more I tend towards lp. For sp the footwork need to be better !

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2021, 16:47 
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To me, it's very simple.
Like many, I started playing with two inverted rubbers and looped on both sides.
One day, I decided to try modern defense as an experiment.

Chopping (on BH) with a slower inverted rubber is possible but not easy to control loops from USATT 2k and above players.

So, next comes LP.... Well unless one is ok with twiddling A LOT, it feels like a very passive strategy because even at pro level, I haven't seen too many LP choppers scoring points with their LP. Yes, it's easier and safer to chop with LP but FH inverted counters win points, not LP chops.

So naturally, SP was the next choice.
It represents a very good compromise between spin variation (chops) and insensitivity to spin BUT it also allows to block and hit balls at the table. To me, it's why SP is way more unpredictable for opponents and therefore beneficial to me.

Regarding SP rubbers themselves, after testing MANY, Spectol always comes back as the best compromise. It's very insensitive to spin during blocks but can produce a lot of spin for back and sidespin chops.
Depending on the blades I tried, my favorites are either Spectol 21 (with its 30 deg and thicker sponge 1.8-2.1) or Spectol Speed (1.0 or 1.5).

Lately, I am testing Challenger Attack 1.5mm; it's decent and attacks better than it chops (for now).
It seems that the ball bites better with the Spectol topsheet.

Good luck everyone and keep having fun chopping with SP :rock:

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