OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 27 May 2020, 05:58


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2015, 15:57 
Offline
Full member
User avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2014, 19:07
Posts: 99
Location: SoCal, USA!
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 19 times
dunc wrote:
Beta wrote:
I've heard from many people that he uses the Standard sponge on Spectol, but I have not met Hou Yingchao in person, so I may be wrong. Feel free to correct me if you have any definitive source for his equipment, I'd be interested to know (he may be an EJ for all I know).

I read it on somewhere like myTT first but I didn't really believe it. One of the Chinese guys I've played against and had a bit of coaching from in my league (a University student) uses Chinese forums a great deal and they tend to be a fairly reliable source for finding out professional players' equipment. I asked him about Hou - he didn't actually know who he was, but he did some searches and a few separate posts seemed to indicate that he uses a "custom sponge" and one of those said it was "harder than Spectol Speed". Obviously that could be total bull. I'd imagine he can chop pretty well with both, but isn't a harder sponge supposed to give you more feeling and less "spring"?



Beta wrote:
How do you mean? These SP techniques are fairly elementary.. of course the better your opponent, the harder they are to execute. But keeping a loose wrist, snapping it (or choosing not to), and not creating a painfully obvious follow through are extremely basic chopping guidelines.. I don't know if there's any decent chopper you could find who doesn't do that??

I don't think my chopping technique is totally hideous with the SPs (http://youtu.be/4t3gvNsuwvU?t=8m43s, though I know I need to be much lower and start my swing higher - I'm better at that 5 months down the line) but my pushing was so inconsistent. As I said in DA's blog thread I sometimes get heavy backspin when I don't mean to and vice versa. With my Curl P1-R I know that if I get the bat angle right and engage the sponge I can create backspin or if I tilt the bat a bit with the same motion and I can achieve reversal. I know how to float with SPs by lifting upwards (the way you would with inverted) but when I try to get heavy backspin nothing really seems to happen. Then every so often I just seem to "catch it" correctly and it's absolutely loaded.

One thing I did notice in the 2007 video DA posted was Hou's chopping distance. I've roughly estimated (I know the angles aren't right so it's not entirely accurate but it's not too far off) that when Hou chops what I'd call a "warmup loop", he stands around 3m from the table. When his opponent plays a full-blown powerloop he stands about 4m away:

Image

I measured the courts I play my home matches on tonight and it's 2.9m of space from the end of the table to the wall/barriers. Argh :(

For me, a sponge that's too hard makes for more difficult chopping. There's less dwell time for you to manipulate the spin, a harder rebound which also makes finesse shots lose control, and less 'dampening' of the ball which I think is crucial for every chopper.

Take for example a few examples of popular chopping rubbers among professionals; among Long Pips, Feint Long III and TSP Curl p4 have outrageously soft sponges; FLII is slightly harder but still soft, yet TSP CURL P1r is a bit on the firm side. However, the nature of long pips increases the ease of chops and slows the ball more than short pips, so one would be able to get away with a slightly harder sponge and still retain control.

Among short pips, I know TSP Super Spinpips Chop sponge is very hard, but as far as I've heard it hasn't been popular at all. TSP then decided to release their 'Chop 2' sponge which is significantly softer. SP choppers that I know (very few) or read about (a few) tend to prefer the softer sponges for the control/extra dwell.

You're experiencing the biggest common problem for choppers at an amateur level, and I know your pain! Even in many high level competitions, choppers are at a big disadvantage during qualifying rounds where tables are fit so close together they really don't have room to play their game.

One more thing: what SP rubber do you chop with?


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015, 03:58 
Offline
A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
User avatar

Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:15
Posts: 1755
Location: Newcastle, UK
Has thanked: 178 times
Been thanked: 162 times
Blade: BTY Innershield
FH: BTY Tenergy 80FX (2.1mm)
BH: TSP Curl P1-R (1mm)
Does a soft sponge really give extra control? I used Super SpinPips Chop Sponge 2 (~1.5mm) with its super-soft sponge for a couple of months and although it was the spinniest SP I've ever used (really spinny, almost inverted levels) it was also a catastrophic nightmare for trying to control heavy spin. Spectol is much easier in that respect but I still find that if I play a passive stroke the ball sinks into the sponge and catapults outward. I don't think it would do that with a hard sponge?

In that video I was using Spectol. I've played two summer league seasons with SPs (winter with LPs). I used SSPCS2 then 802 one season and Spectol in the second season. Spectol is my favourite in terms of feeling though I absolutely wish I could play with SSPCS2 as full-blooded chops are unbelievably heavy and the sidespin you can get with that rubber is ridiculous.

After a full season my short game with SPs gets quite good. I still go back to LPs though because I enjoy the game more when my short game is really solid and I'm forcing opponents to loop regularly. Unfortunately there's no point me spending hours learning the SP short game if I don't have room to chop a powerloop. There are a few players in my division who can really rip a loop past you. Even if I move venues for home games, 50% of the teams in the Premier division are clubs at my current venue!

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015, 06:16 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 39 times
Spectol or other TSP are an unvulcanized (or maybe less vulcanized) pip like 799. It doesn't have the internal crosslinking for extra elasticity of normal rubbers, and esp on pips that does produce somewhat different returns even on simple shots like blocks (they come back feeling a bit off-speed which upsets offensive timing). I've never tried the TSPs, though.

But generally SP chopping is same as inverted play with bit more tolerance for incoming spin. Speed of contact with sufficient "thickness" is the essence. The player's really gotta sight & track the incoming trajectory and slice into the ball for aggressive returns. Same as with anything else it's a good idea to slow the gear down at first so it's easier to experiment with technique and find that "groove" to keep the returns low and long, instead of copying a pro who has the skills to compromise control for something else. This means a deader sponge, the exactly opposite of what's under modern offensive rubbers (could be softer or harder, doesn't matter but softer will provide more friction). "Variation" is what Hou Yingchao uses to keep in the game at his level, but taking the easiest path to get solid returns in is what will improve ability fastest.

SP def is pretty challenging, every shot and point away from the table feels a bit on knife edge and I'm personally too idle (and brittle) of a player for that style.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015, 06:24 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 39 times
> For me, a sponge that's too hard makes for more difficult chopping. There's less dwell time for you to manipulate the spin, a harder rebound which also makes finesse shots lose control, and less 'dampening' of the ball which I think is crucial for every chopper.

Dwell is not going to do any for "manipulation". A softer sponge all things equal (and there's a range of elasticity possible in sponge) is just a bit slower and lets the ball sink for more frictional surface. Friction provides ability to impart spin but also reacts more to it, so whether that results in "more control" is a matter of a player's shot selection and skillset balance.

The difference from SP to LP is more than just dampening. LP can return passable shots against topspin aggression with low-effort/passive strokes, which is the major shortcoming of amateur SP chopping esp in modern def which has to work with a range of distances from the table.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2015, 08:33 
Offline
A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
User avatar

Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:15
Posts: 1755
Location: Newcastle, UK
Has thanked: 178 times
Been thanked: 162 times
Blade: BTY Innershield
FH: BTY Tenergy 80FX (2.1mm)
BH: TSP Curl P1-R (1mm)
agenthex wrote:
The difference from SP to LP is more than just dampening. LP can return passable shots against topspin aggression with low-effort/passive strokes, which is the major shortcoming of amateur SP chopping esp in modern def which has to work with a range of distances from the table.

agenthex wrote:
"Variation" is what Hou Yingchao uses to keep in the game at his level, but taking the easiest path to get solid returns in is what will improve ability fastest.

agenthex wrote:
SP def is pretty challenging, every shot and point away from the table feels a bit on knife edge and I'm personally too idle (and brittle) of a player for that style.

These three points summarise the difference between LP and SP perfectly.

If you've come from an inverted offensive game, your chopping positioning will take years to hone with SPs.
If you've come from a LP defensive game, your short game will take years to hone with SPs.

I'm starting to think that you need a) enough room, b) enough speed/agility and c) a rock-solid short game with SPs to play at any kind of level with them. Otherwise my opinion is that against good players you'll lose to the equipment before you lose to the player, if that makes sense. LP would bring most choppers closer to that level.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2020, 08:46 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 01 May 2019, 07:33
Posts: 10
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 1 time
Blade: Pongori
FH: Artengo 700m
BH: Artengo 700m
dunc wrote:
Beta wrote:
I've heard from many people that he uses the Standard sponge on Spectol, but I have not met Hou Yingchao in person, so I may be wrong. Feel free to correct me if you have any definitive source for his equipment, I'd be interested to know (he may be an EJ for all I know).

I read it on somewhere like myTT first but I didn't really believe it. One of the Chinese guys I've played against and had a bit of coaching from in my league (a University student) uses Chinese forums a great deal and they tend to be a fairly reliable source for finding out professional players' equipment. I asked him about Hou - he didn't actually know who he was, but he did some searches and a few separate posts seemed to indicate that he uses a "custom sponge" and one of those said it was "harder than Spectol Speed". Obviously that could be total bull. I'd imagine he can chop pretty well with both, but isn't a harder sponge supposed to give you more feeling and less "spring"?

Beta wrote:
How do you mean? These SP techniques are fairly elementary.. of course the better your opponent, the harder they are to execute. But keeping a loose wrist, snapping it (or choosing not to), and not creating a painfully obvious follow through are extremely basic chopping guidelines.. I don't know if there's any decent chopper you could find who doesn't do that??

I don't think my chopping technique is totally hideous with the SPs (http://youtu.be/4t3gvNsuwvU?t=8m43s, though I know I need to be much lower and start my swing higher - I'm better at that 5 months down the line) but my pushing was so inconsistent. As I said in DA's blog thread I sometimes get heavy backspin when I don't mean to and vice versa. With my Curl P1-R I know that if I get the bat angle right and engage the sponge I can create backspin or if I tilt the bat a bit with the same motion and I can achieve reversal. I know how to float with SPs by lifting upwards (the way you would with inverted) but when I try to get heavy backspin nothing really seems to happen. Then every so often I just seem to "catch it" correctly and it's absolutely loaded.

One thing I did notice in the 2007 video DA posted was Hou's chopping distance. I've roughly estimated (I know the angles aren't right so it's not entirely accurate but it's not too far off) that when Hou chops what I'd call a "warmup loop", he stands around 3m from the table. When his opponent plays a full-blown powerloop he stands about 4m away:

Image

I measured the courts I play my home matches on tonight and it's 2.9m of space from the end of the table to the wall/barriers. Argh :(


The yellow lines are from handball court: the first one is on 6m, the small one (penalty) 7m and cut line 9m.
So the distance from first to second is 1m and to third one 3m... second to third is 2m.

Conclusion: Hou chopping distance in this image (video) is ~2.6m

Image: https://pasteboard.co/IURsd3p.jpg
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group