OOAK Table Tennis Forum

For me, a sponge that's too hard makes for more difficult chopping. There's less dwell time for you to manipulate the spin, a harder rebound which also makes finesse shots lose control, and less 'dampening' of the ball which I think is crucial for every chopper.

Take for example a few examples of popular chopping rubbers among professionals; among Long Pips, Feint Long III and TSP Curl p4 have outrageously soft sponges; FLII is slightly harder but still soft, yet TSP CURL P1r is a bit on the firm side. However, the nature of long pips increases the ease of chops and slows the ball more than short pips, so one would be able to get away with a slightly harder sponge and still retain control.

Among short pips, I know TSP Super Spinpips Chop sponge is very hard, but as far as I've heard it hasn't been popular at all. TSP then decided to release their 'Chop 2' sponge which is significantly softer. SP choppers that I know (very few) or read about (a few) tend to prefer the softer sponges for the control/extra dwell.

You're experiencing the biggest common problem for choppers at an amateur level, and I know your pain! Even in many high level competitions, choppers are at a big disadvantage during qualifying rounds where tables are fit so close together they really don't have room to play their game.

One more thing: what SP rubber do you chop with?

Does a soft sponge really give extra control? I used Super SpinPips Chop Sponge 2 (~1.5mm) with its super-soft sponge for a couple of months and although it was the spinniest SP I've ever used (really spinny, almost inverted levels) it was also a catastrophic nightmare for trying to control heavy spin. Spectol is much easier in that respect but I still find that if I play a passive stroke the ball sinks into the sponge and catapults outward. I don't think it would do that with a hard sponge?

In that video I was using Spectol. I've played two summer league seasons with SPs (winter with LPs). I used SSPCS2 then 802 one season and Spectol in the second season. Spectol is my favourite in terms of feeling though I absolutely wish I could play with SSPCS2 as full-blooded chops are unbelievably heavy and the sidespin you can get with that rubber is ridiculous.

After a full season my short game with SPs gets quite good. I still go back to LPs though because I enjoy the game more when my short game is really solid and I'm forcing opponents to loop regularly. Unfortunately there's no point me spending hours learning the SP short game if I don't have room to chop a powerloop. There are a few players in my division who can really rip a loop past you. Even if I move venues for home games, 50% of the teams in the Premier division are clubs at my current venue!

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Spectol or other TSP are an unvulcanized (or maybe less vulcanized) pip like 799. It doesn't have the internal crosslinking for extra elasticity of normal rubbers, and esp on pips that does produce somewhat different returns even on simple shots like blocks (they come back feeling a bit off-speed which upsets offensive timing). I've never tried the TSPs, though.

But generally SP chopping is same as inverted play with bit more tolerance for incoming spin. Speed of contact with sufficient "thickness" is the essence. The player's really gotta sight & track the incoming trajectory and slice into the ball for aggressive returns. Same as with anything else it's a good idea to slow the gear down at first so it's easier to experiment with technique and find that "groove" to keep the returns low and long, instead of copying a pro who has the skills to compromise control for something else. This means a deader sponge, the exactly opposite of what's under modern offensive rubbers (could be softer or harder, doesn't matter but softer will provide more friction). "Variation" is what Hou Yingchao uses to keep in the game at his level, but taking the easiest path to get solid returns in is what will improve ability fastest.

SP def is pretty challenging, every shot and point away from the table feels a bit on knife edge and I'm personally too idle (and brittle) of a player for that style.

> For me, a sponge that's too hard makes for more difficult chopping. There's less dwell time for you to manipulate the spin, a harder rebound which also makes finesse shots lose control, and less 'dampening' of the ball which I think is crucial for every chopper.

Dwell is not going to do any for "manipulation". A softer sponge all things equal (and there's a range of elasticity possible in sponge) is just a bit slower and lets the ball sink for more frictional surface. Friction provides ability to impart spin but also reacts more to it, so whether that results in "more control" is a matter of a player's shot selection and skillset balance.

The difference from SP to LP is more than just dampening. LP can return passable shots against topspin aggression with low-effort/passive strokes, which is the major shortcoming of amateur SP chopping esp in modern def which has to work with a range of distances from the table.

These three points summarise the difference between LP and SP perfectly.

If you've come from an inverted offensive game, your chopping positioning will take years to hone with SPs.
If you've come from a LP defensive game, your short game will take years to hone with SPs.

I'm starting to think that you need a) enough room, b) enough speed/agility and c) a rock-solid short game with SPs to play at any kind of level with them. Otherwise my opinion is that against good players you'll lose to the equipment before you lose to the player, if that makes sense. LP would bring most choppers closer to that level.

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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

The yellow lines are from handball court: the first one is on 6m, the small one (penalty) 7m and cut line 9m.
So the distance from first to second is 1m and to third one 3m... second to third is 2m.

Conclusion: Hou chopping distance in this image (video) is ~2.6m

Image: https://pasteboard.co/IURsd3p.jpg

Sorry for digging up an old thread...
I am, during this Corona-paus from league games, trying out short pips chopping again. Although this time I am more allround in my game pattern and the ball (ABS-ball) has far less rotation compared to the last time I tried this style.

What I learned the last time was that a soft blade makes it more difficult on bth sides for this game. This time I have a semi-stiff allround with bass-wood and some carbon (DHS Classic 08X). It is all+ I think, rather simliar to Stiga Allround Classic but with more stiffness, a little heavier, bigger head, more head hevy and some more speed. I never tried Stiga Allround Carbon, but I imagine it is close to my DHS.

I started with Spectol, my old 1,5 mm from when I last posted in this thread. I then used a fresh Spectol in 1.8 mm for a month. Then I tried a new pip, Spinlord Nashorn. That was fun but not very good for chopping.

Then I revisited some old friends, 799, Globe 889-2, 802-1, Millitall II and 802. I also tried different blades but the DHS was very nice for my FH and it feels very solid and good in most situations, even though it is a little fast for chopping with SP.

So, I found that with the lesser rotation of this new ball 802 with original orange sponge on DHS CLassic 08X is a very nice combo for an allround game with SP attacking, pushing, blocking and chopping. Only problem was that my 802 is in 1.8 mm, that is a little thick and fast for me, even though it is very good for attacks. In a few days I will try 1.5 mm and perhaps even 1.0 mm.

So the benefits of 802 compared to Spectol is spin on first chop, spin on pushes over the table, and that it is easier to block with. But Spectol is more deceptive, the flight path from blocks and attacks is more crooked. And control in chops is a little better, it is more forgiving. ALso, recieving serves is a lot easier with Spectol because of the lesser grip. But Spectol is also more difficult for blocking and attacking since the grip is lower. So if you chop more, then Spectol. If you chop less and stay at the table a little more, then 802. Anyway, it is very fun but also a little frustrating to play this style

I changed style from my normal at-the-table-blocking with frictionless anti, mostly for having more fun during practice, but also for helping my training partner develop, and to get better foot work. But perhaps most imporrtant - to force myself to read spin better (when recieving serves), since I have become very lazy in that department when using frictionless anti.

Not sure how long this paus from anti will last though... It may depend on how successful I think I can be with SP compared to anti... and how much fun I have

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If you chop with a short pips against me, I would loop the crap out of your short pips chops, even if you are a professional player.
You may beat me easily as a professional player because you may be far superior to my level with your other side and or you may hit very well with your short pip side, but you are not going to beat me just chopping with your short pips.

The original intended purpose of invention of long-pips was to answer the heavy loops of a glued-up attacker with amplified back-spin chop returns (though Scholer & Sharara have systematically reduced this back-spin over &over later on) . So why would you use even a medium pip let alone short pips as a full time chopper, unless you are an all around non-pro hacker ?

IMO chopping with short pips is a delusional fantasy or a fad. I know some pro & semi-pro players use it but I am positive they do not win because of short pips chopping but they win because of their other overall skills including short pips hitting and they probably would be little better off even with with a medium pips rubber or much better off chopping with long pips (at their equal skill level with other pros.......they would beat a non-pro player easily otherwise anyway regardless of their liability of short pips chopping.).

I know even USATT CEO Virginia Sung tried it & one of my friend's cousin's second-cousin, who had beaten her two straight at her prime under-15 (old score), told me, he would have beaten her under-10 if she had used short-pips against him.

Short pips is meant as a primary weapon for old block and smash style ( Jiang Ji Liang, Johnny Huang, Gao Jun etc) or new block and loop style (for Kritian Karlssson or Mattias Falck) but definitely not for modern defender loop and chop style. I am an aware of Mima Ito and she is a rare exception as she attacks like mad from short pips backhand also, but I always wondered if she would be better (scary) with a blocking long-pips like two-time Olympic singles gold-medalist Deng Yaping (& Mima even has sort of same body build as Deng but seems much faster)

In fact short pips is no good as a secondary weapon even for hitting from say backhand, you are far better off with anti or blocking type long pips.

In summary, short pips is meant for kind of natural-born table-tennis players such as Jiang or Johnny Huang or Gao Jun or Scott Boggan or He Zhiwen etc. In fact one of my friend's grand-father's grand-son has played against Gao Jun in her prime in tournaments and she beat him easily but honestly she does not look like an athletic table-tennis player but it is all natural table-tennis talent. (Only natural-born losers like most table-tennis players are, need spin(any spin, top, back or side) to keep the ball on the table LOL). he Zhiwen & Gao Jun are even more amazing since they have survived in modern table-tennis using old style penhold, unlike Liu Guoliang RPH

Of course if you want to have some fun and live your fantasy , knock yourself out.

Interesting point of view.

Well, Sweden's best defender Linda Bergström tried the Spectol for half a year (last year, summer and autumn) but she returned to P1-r, she did not use it for sudden attacks near the table as intended and she felt less safe away from the table (if I remember correctly).

I am just having fun, no way near any top level player. Just getting a good excercise. And for that this is great fun. And if it feels good and I don't get beaten a lot more than with anti I may stick to it.

But have a look at young upcomming chineese male choppers.... And why did Hou (and also Wang Yang?) suddenly win more matches even though they are not getting younger? I think it is easier to use them with this less spinning ball. No way you can spin somebody out completely with this ball, nor with SP, not with LP (then Ruwen and Ma Te would have done that) and not with anti (but anti comes closest). It is with spin varistion or consistency you win. Well, I am not a man of endless patience... I go for spin variation.

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Good point (except that you say both up and coming as well as not getting any younger LOL)
Wang Yang does not seem to to be that good though he is quite high at #34

Hou Yingchao does really blow my mind. He was not only Chinese national champion at age of 37 in 2019 but even more crazy is that he was Chinese national Champion in 2000 as well. I have to say winning Chinese National Championship is like winning the world championships and he did it twice. I wonder what he used in 2000 just after 1998. Or maybe it is just me as I have the least trouble against away from table short pips choppers compared to against anti or spinny inverted or long pips choppers but I have the most trouble against close to the table short pips hitters.

I admit I have not followed either player and love to hear their viewpoint as to why they switched to short pips from long pips (if they did) after they became CNT rejects (sort of like Chen Xinhua). Just goes to also prove my point where defenders stand in the table-tennis world

At least Hou looks like he does chop with his short pips 99% of the time but I have extreme difficulty comprehending that a top 10 Chinese player would have difficulty with his short-pips chops(Only explanation I can think of is that he is big and strong & was chopping the crap out of the ball like old time hardbat choppers) . I know it happened with Ding Song as well & I just cannot believe Ding Song beat Jorgen Persson at 1995 Tianjin WTTC & even won the Swedish Open

Despite all this I would not only NEVER recommend a short pip for a chopping defender but also strongly advise against short pips simply because of the very intended nature of the design of long pips & short pips. I know Dick Miles used to chop the crap out of the ball with hardbat & recently Steve Berger at national level. So I have always wondered how much better Steve Berger would be with long pips or why Ty Hoff went to hardbat from long pips

I completely agree. If you stick to one stroke only, you'll always loose. The key to success is beeing unpredictable. I switched from long pips to short pips to increase this aspect of my game. Short pips offer me a wider range of variation at still lower spin sensitivity compared to inverted. My chopping game has not lost much in terms of consistency. Mixed with the occasional block or hit, it can give most opponents some head aches. Overall, my playing level certainly has not decreased.

So, to all unhappy long pip choppers out there, why don't you give short pips a try?

Cheers -

PS - about equipment: it doesn't matter at all. Hard sponge, soft sponge, more or less grippy top sheet, raw or cooked, imo it's more a matter of getting used to...

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- style: modern defense -

There's just something I find very satisfying when chopping with short pips. Using long pips, aside from placement of the ball, there isn't much satisfaction that comes from simply returning it over and over until someone misses.

Short pips, while more difficult, really leave me believing I actually WON the point! Spun the ball heavier so they netted it, took some off so they sent if off the table etc.

It's that kind of active play which really involves me mentally in the point, whereas with LP I function more as an idle return board - hence why it is labeled as junk rubber...

Maybe I've just grown tired of the passive LP game, and desire a more hands on approach, even if it means I lose against serves or other shots I normally would have no trouble facing with long pips.

Challenger attack 1.5

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SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

I was going to write a detailed reply thinking you are being serious.
Until I understood your incredible sense of humor & sarcasm

It is fine and dandy with me as long you justify & rationalize your own choice of equipment which to me is hypocrisy to start with or claim that ONLY your (irrational in the sponge domain) version of chopping is so high & holy. You admit you use some spinny stuff on FH side. Why not use same short pips both sides if that is so high and holy ? Why don't you just regress to hardbat instead of this half spinny hypocrisy ?

The problem comes when you start engaging in name calling by referring to long pips as junk, but if I refer to someone as a robotNazi, then I will be banned from forums and somehow become the most hated person in table-tennis. If you are not aware, when sponge rubbers started getting popular in the 60's , frustrated hardbat users (like Marty Reisman) started referring to spinny inverted rubber as junk rubber. Just so you know.

It is OK, most LP users have been brainwashed brilliantly by the robotNazis into believing that they are inferior and worthless pieces of trash that almost all LP users themselves refer to themselves as to be on the "darkside". One of my friend's mother's son told me that this is why someone tried to address this total lack of self-esteem of LP users by referring to the LP side as the divine side. If you go the webpage called http://FITTF.com you will see an article about joining the divine side. BTW the the first F in the link name does not exactly imply they are fond of ITTF.

It is incredible indeed, how misunderstandings come to be. I would never dare to use sarcasm when there is place for such.

If you disagree with my statement, please explain, why would world class players use different stuff? There are professionals using 802, Spectol, Super Spinpips, Speedy Soft (even the D'tecs version), 8228, Challenger Attack, Do Knuckle, and I don't not what else for chopping. Some even switch from one to another.

I'm waiting for the day someone agrees with me that in the end it boils down to skill, not equipment.

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- style: modern defense -