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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2015, 03:46 
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Has anyone experience from chopping with 802, TSP Spectol and TSP Super Spinpips? How are they compared to each other in terms of speed and ability to chop no spin? How are they compared to each other for pushing? For bblocking?

I am using 802 1.0 mm for the moment and will soon move on to 1.5 mm. I will also re-visit 802-1 1.5 mm and Spinpips Chop sponge 2 1.1 mm. But I am very curious about Spectol and perhaps Spinpips on a "normal" sponge. Any input?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 16:37 
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Def-attack wrote:
Has anyone experience from chopping with 802, TSP Spectol and TSP Super Spinpips? How are they compared to each other in terms of speed and ability to chop no spin? How are they compared to each other for pushing? For bblocking?

I am using 802 1.0 mm for the moment and will soon move on to 1.5 mm. I will also re-visit 802-1 1.5 mm and Spinpips Chop sponge 2 1.1 mm. But I am very curious about Spectol and perhaps Spinpips on a "normal" sponge. Any input?


Well, now I have tried Spectol 1,5 mm one session. Very nice (more described in my blog). But I had problems generating spin on chops. I now realize that 802 is a rather spinny SP for chopping and pushing. Spectol feels actually more like a grippy LP with its soft sponge and pips. Does anyone has any guidance on how to chop with Spectol to generate heavy spin chops? I tend to generate some back spin and I can do no spin chops. But the ones with very heavy spin I couldn't do. Should I chop with more wrist (I used a little), or more arm force? More vertical or more with open bat towards the table? Should I chop with handle more facing the floor or table (not facing the body) since pips are aligned the other way? Any suggestions are welcome :clap: :clap: :clap: !

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 17:11 
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Def-attack wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Has anyone experience from chopping with 802, TSP Spectol and TSP Super Spinpips? How are they compared to each other in terms of speed and ability to chop no spin? How are they compared to each other for pushing? For bblocking?

I am using 802 1.0 mm for the moment and will soon move on to 1.5 mm. I will also re-visit 802-1 1.5 mm and Spinpips Chop sponge 2 1.1 mm. But I am very curious about Spectol and perhaps Spinpips on a "normal" sponge. Any input?


Well, now I have tried Spectol 1,5 mm one session. Very nice (more described in my blog). But I had problems generating spin on chops. I now realize that 802 is a rather spinny SP for chopping and pushing. Spectol feels actually more like a grippy LP with its soft sponge and pips. Does anyone has any guidance on how to chop with Spectol to generate heavy spin chops? I tend to generate some back spin and I can do no spin chops. But the ones with very heavy spin I couldn't do. Should I chop with more wrist (I used a little), or more arm force? More vertical or more with open bat towards the table? Should I chop with handle more facing the floor or table (not facing the body) since pips are aligned the other way? Any suggestions are welcome :clap: :clap: :clap: !


I am afraid you are kind out out of luck here. I have tested Spectol and many MPs quite extensively, the results are remarkably similar even though Spectol is clearly a SP. If you want to impart heavy underspin with Spectol, you must let the ball drop lower and use your legs and waist to do it. In other words you should chop farther away from the table and move your entire body forward while doing so. The obvious problem with this is your opponent will easily be able to see that it is loaded with heavy spin and won't bite. He will simply push it back and you just wasted a great chop. To make this heavy chop more effective, your main chops with Spectol should be of non-spin variety but done with a BIG motion as if it's loaded, then mix them up with heavy ones so your opponent will misread then while attacking.
Unlike 802, you won't be able to produce enough underspin with Spectol just by adding more wrist to your stroke. You must use your entire body and there's no way you can do it frequently enough to be your main weapon. Just consider Spectol as a MP for chopping purposes, and use nonspin chops as your main weapon. I have gone down that road before...

Hope this helps. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 17:28 
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roundrobin wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Has anyone experience from chopping with 802, TSP Spectol and TSP Super Spinpips? How are they compared to each other in terms of speed and ability to chop no spin? How are they compared to each other for pushing? For bblocking?

I am using 802 1.0 mm for the moment and will soon move on to 1.5 mm. I will also re-visit 802-1 1.5 mm and Spinpips Chop sponge 2 1.1 mm. But I am very curious about Spectol and perhaps Spinpips on a "normal" sponge. Any input?


Well, now I have tried Spectol 1,5 mm one session. Very nice (more described in my blog). But I had problems generating spin on chops. I now realize that 802 is a rather spinny SP for chopping and pushing. Spectol feels actually more like a grippy LP with its soft sponge and pips. Does anyone has any guidance on how to chop with Spectol to generate heavy spin chops? I tend to generate some back spin and I can do no spin chops. But the ones with very heavy spin I couldn't do. Should I chop with more wrist (I used a little), or more arm force? More vertical or more with open bat towards the table? Should I chop with handle more facing the floor or table (not facing the body) since pips are aligned the other way? Any suggestions are welcome :clap: :clap: :clap: !


I am afraid you are kind out out of luck here. I have tested Spectol and many MPs quite extensively, the results are remarkably similar even though Spectol is clearly a SP. If you want to impart heavy underspin with Spectol, you must let the ball drop lower and use your legs and waist to do it. In other words you should chop farther away from the table and move your entire body forward while doing so. The obvious problem with this is your opponent will easily be able to see that it is loaded with heavy spin and won't bite. He will simply push it back and you just wasted a great chop. To make this heavy chop more effective, your main chops with Spectol should be of non-spin variety but done with a BIG motion as if it's loaded, then mix them up with heavy ones so your opponent will misread then while attacking.
Unlike 802, you won't be able to produce enough underspin with Spectol just by adding more wrist to your stroke. You must use your entire body and there's no way you can do it frequently enough to be your main weapon. Just consider Spectol as a MP for chopping purposes, and use nonspin chops as your main weapon. I have gone down that road before...

Hope this helps. :)

Thanks! Yes, I think it helps. And I will study some Spectol choppers as well :) I need a standard chop closer to the table that is low and rather fast (faster than from a LP) for the first chop and I need a heavy one further away from the table and a no spin from that distance.
I will have no problems against those who loop one and pushes one. Thee I wil have nice opportunities to attack. But those who discover my chops are low spinned and just loop one and kill the next... that will be tricky.
But at least with Spectol I can chop many in a row. And if I get a weaker loop I can actually smash it back with Spectol :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 19:20 
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I respectfully disagree that Spectol is similar to a Medium pip in any regard, especially in chopping. While it does not have tack or immense friction, the pips are still fairly grippy, and can grab the ball very well. The sponge is also conducive to producing a good amount of backspin on chops.

I will agree though, that this is not the Short pip to use if you're looking for destructively heavy rip chops (LP in the way of TSP Curl P1r would serve this purpose better).

Its strength is in its variation: in its short game, touch shots are effortless, and variations between spinless push and heavy push are almost too easy to make. When chopping, varying between heavier backspin, lighter backspin, and no spin is also quite user friendly.

However, if you REALLY want to see how Spectol can be used to hit some seriously wicked chops, look no further than Hou Yingchao. This guy has the single most funky chops I've seen, and not only is it clear that he can get insane backspin, the amount of sidespin he frequently puts onto his chops is possibly heavier/more disturbing/more creative than any other chopper I've seen. Watching him chop is truly watching an artist.

Watch Hou Yingchao beat Dimitrij Ovtcharov 3-1 using Spectol (regular sponge) !
Of course it should be mentioned that he's got a killer inverted forehand too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQUHSTEM90


Last edited by Beta on 06 Feb 2015, 19:34, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 19:28 
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Beta wrote:
I respectfully disagree that Spectol is similar to a Medium pip in any regard, especially in chopping. While it does not have tack or immense friction, the pips are still fairly grippy, and the sponge is conducive to producing a good amount of backspin on chops.

I will agree though, that this is not the Short pip to use if you're looking for destructively heavy rip chops (LP in the way of TSP Curl P1r would serve this purpose better).

Its strength is in its variation: in its short game, touch shots are effortless, and variations between spinless push and heavy push are almost too easy to make. When chopping, varying between heavier backspin, lighter backspin, and no spin is also quite user friendly.

However, if you REALLY want to see how Spectol can be used to hit some seriously wicked chops, look no further than Hou Yingchao. This guy has the single most funky chops I've seen, and not only is it clear that he can get insane backspin, the amount of sidespin he frequently puts onto his chops is possibly heavier/more disturbing/more creative than any other chopper I've seen. Watching him chop is truly watching an artist.

Watch Hou Yingchao beat Dimitrij Ovtcharov 3-1 using Spectol (regular sponge) !
Of course it should be mentioned that he's got a killer inverted forehand too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQUHSTEM90



Yes, I am well aware of Hou, and I truly admire his game. That is what I am aiming at :-)
My wonderings concerned mostly how to make chops with as much spin as Spectol can produce.
How do you vary between push with and without back spin with Spectol?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 19:40 
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Def-attack wrote:
Beta wrote:
I respectfully disagree that Spectol is similar to a Medium pip in any regard, especially in chopping. While it does not have tack or immense friction, the pips are still fairly grippy, and the sponge is conducive to producing a good amount of backspin on chops.

I will agree though, that this is not the Short pip to use if you're looking for destructively heavy rip chops (LP in the way of TSP Curl P1r would serve this purpose better).

Its strength is in its variation: in its short game, touch shots are effortless, and variations between spinless push and heavy push are almost too easy to make. When chopping, varying between heavier backspin, lighter backspin, and no spin is also quite user friendly.

However, if you REALLY want to see how Spectol can be used to hit some seriously wicked chops, look no further than Hou Yingchao. This guy has the single most funky chops I've seen, and not only is it clear that he can get insane backspin, the amount of sidespin he frequently puts onto his chops is possibly heavier/more disturbing/more creative than any other chopper I've seen. Watching him chop is truly watching an artist.

Watch Hou Yingchao beat Dimitrij Ovtcharov 3-1 using Spectol (regular sponge) !
Of course it should be mentioned that he's got a killer inverted forehand too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQUHSTEM90



Yes, I am well aware of Hou, and I truly admire his game. That is what I am aiming at :-)
My wonderings concerned mostly how to make chops with as much spin as Spectol can produce.
How do you vary between push with and without back spin with Spectol?


Snapping the wrist and keeping it very loose is crucial to getting heavy backspin without a hugely obviously follow-through. Think of it almost like the serve; if you took a big, obvious stroke to serve with heavy spin, your opponent would have no trouble. Instead, you snap the wrist sharply when contacting the ball, and either don't follow through much or try to disguise your follow-through stroke.

The push with spin and no spin is subtle, but can vary the spin a great deal. Again, I implement the wrist quite a lot here. If you don't use the wrist and don't cut into the ball hard, the SP push will send back quite a bit less backspin than your opponent may be expecting, and could force an error. However, a very subtle wrist flick just upon contact will cause your push to act closer to inverted, actually giving you substantial backspin.

Just keep practicing; the best way to learn variations is to learn from the times you make fortunate mistakes, and then try to replicate them intentionally!


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 20:07 
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Beta wrote:
Snapping the wrist and keeping it very loose is crucial to getting heavy backspin without a hugely obviously follow-through. Think of it almost like the serve; if you took a big, obvious stroke to serve with heavy spin, your opponent would have no trouble. Instead, you snap the wrist sharply when contacting the ball, and either don't follow through much or try to disguise your follow-through stroke.

The push with spin and no spin is subtle, but can vary the spin a great deal. Again, I implement the wrist quite a lot here. If you don't use the wrist and don't cut into the ball hard, the SP push will send back quite a bit less backspin than your opponent may be expecting, and could force an error. However, a very subtle wrist flick just upon contact will cause your push to act closer to inverted, actually giving you substantial backspin.

Just keep practicing; the best way to learn variations is to learn from the times you make fortunate mistakes, and then try to replicate them intentionally!


Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 21:12 
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Beta wrote:
Watch Hou Yingchao beat Dimitrij Ovtcharov 3-1 using Spectol (regular sponge) !

I've always read that Hou uses a custom sponge, much harder than that of regular Spectol.

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Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 21:13 
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Beta wrote:
Snapping the wrist and keeping it very loose is crucial to getting heavy backspin without a hugely obviously follow-through. Think of it almost like the serve; if you took a big, obvious stroke to serve with heavy spin, your opponent would have no trouble. Instead, you snap the wrist sharply when contacting the ball, and either don't follow through much or try to disguise your follow-through stroke.

The push with spin and no spin is subtle, but can vary the spin a great deal. Again, I implement the wrist quite a lot here. If you don't use the wrist and don't cut into the ball hard, the SP push will send back quite a bit less backspin than your opponent may be expecting, and could force an error. However, a very subtle wrist flick just upon contact will cause your push to act closer to inverted, actually giving you substantial backspin.

I don't suppose you've got a video of these techniques Beta? Such SP chopping technique is incredibly hard to find.

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Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
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LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2015, 22:41 
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Here s a good video of Hou toying around with a player in Levallois (I think) back in 2007:



Polina practicing:


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2015, 01:20 
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Another one:
LYTTC New Chopper in Town: http://youtu.be/uZQ8DM6pgYU

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2015, 07:16 
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dunc wrote:
Beta wrote:
Watch Hou Yingchao beat Dimitrij Ovtcharov 3-1 using Spectol (regular sponge) !

I've always read that Hou uses a custom sponge, much harder than that of regular Spectol.


I've heard from many people that he uses the Standard sponge on Spectol, but I have not met Hou Yingchao in person, so I may be wrong. Feel free to correct me if you have any definitive source for his equipment, I'd be interested to know (he may be an EJ for all I know).


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2015, 07:19 
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dunc wrote:
Beta wrote:
Snapping the wrist and keeping it very loose is crucial to getting heavy backspin without a hugely obviously follow-through. Think of it almost like the serve; if you took a big, obvious stroke to serve with heavy spin, your opponent would have no trouble. Instead, you snap the wrist sharply when contacting the ball, and either don't follow through much or try to disguise your follow-through stroke.

The push with spin and no spin is subtle, but can vary the spin a great deal. Again, I implement the wrist quite a lot here. If you don't use the wrist and don't cut into the ball hard, the SP push will send back quite a bit less backspin than your opponent may be expecting, and could force an error. However, a very subtle wrist flick just upon contact will cause your push to act closer to inverted, actually giving you substantial backspin.

I don't suppose you've got a video of these techniques Beta? Such SP chopping technique is incredibly hard to find.


How do you mean? These SP techniques are fairly elementary.. of course the better your opponent, the harder they are to execute. But keeping a loose wrist, snapping it (or choosing not to), and not creating a painfully obvious follow through are extremely basic chopping guidelines.. I don't know if there's any decent chopper you could find who doesn't do that??


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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2015, 08:17 
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Beta wrote:
I've heard from many people that he uses the Standard sponge on Spectol, but I have not met Hou Yingchao in person, so I may be wrong. Feel free to correct me if you have any definitive source for his equipment, I'd be interested to know (he may be an EJ for all I know).

I read it on somewhere like myTT first but I didn't really believe it. One of the Chinese guys I've played against and had a bit of coaching from in my league (a University student) uses Chinese forums a great deal and they tend to be a fairly reliable source for finding out professional players' equipment. I asked him about Hou - he didn't actually know who he was, but he did some searches and a few separate posts seemed to indicate that he uses a "custom sponge" and one of those said it was "harder than Spectol Speed". Obviously that could be total bull. I'd imagine he can chop pretty well with both, but isn't a harder sponge supposed to give you more feeling and less "spring"?

Beta wrote:
How do you mean? These SP techniques are fairly elementary.. of course the better your opponent, the harder they are to execute. But keeping a loose wrist, snapping it (or choosing not to), and not creating a painfully obvious follow through are extremely basic chopping guidelines.. I don't know if there's any decent chopper you could find who doesn't do that??

I don't think my chopping technique is totally hideous with the SPs (http://youtu.be/4t3gvNsuwvU?t=8m43s, though I know I need to be much lower and start my swing higher - I'm better at that 5 months down the line) but my pushing was so inconsistent. As I said in DA's blog thread I sometimes get heavy backspin when I don't mean to and vice versa. With my Curl P1-R I know that if I get the bat angle right and engage the sponge I can create backspin or if I tilt the bat a bit with the same motion and I can achieve reversal. I know how to float with SPs by lifting upwards (the way you would with inverted) but when I try to get heavy backspin nothing really seems to happen. Then every so often I just seem to "catch it" correctly and it's absolutely loaded.

One thing I did notice in the 2007 video DA posted was Hou's chopping distance. I've roughly estimated (I know the angles aren't right so it's not entirely accurate but it's not too far off) that when Hou chops what I'd call a "warmup loop", he stands around 3m from the table. When his opponent plays a full-blown powerloop he stands about 4m away:

Image

I measured the courts I play my home matches on tonight and it's 2.9m of space from the end of the table to the wall/barriers. Argh :(

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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