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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 01:55 
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I think your best bet now is just learning to twiddle. You won't find a rubber that fits the forgiveness/spin variation you're after, I don't believe. I've tried just about all of them!! searching for the same thing, and come to that conclusion myself.

For me with short pips it usually goes:

Play low-spin opponent 1 - Wow, these short pips work great! I can change the spin and make them miss all the time, bahaha :devil: :devil:

Play aggressive looper opponent 2 - Wow, holy hell... these short pips suck! I have no control! I can't chop near the table and they're always catching me standing too close! Junk! Going back to long pips!! :@ :@


And then it's the opposite when using long pips. :lol:

I was very resistant to twiddling at the start. But I practiced on the robot, trying to twiddle every shot and get used to the different sides. If you look at most good choppers (who are not super heavy attackers), they are twiddling quite often. Daniel Kleinert, Tetyana Bilenko, Anna Gaponova, viktoria pavlovich, koji matsushita etc.

At the very top level it doesn't seem to happen as much. Joo didn't twiddle, but his opponents always looped heavy to him and he had his forehand to clean up anything else. But if you aren't a forehand killer kind of player, it seems to be you either twiddle for variation or commit to short pips and utilize variation there and accept all its shortcomings/disadvantages. Or perhaps go double inverted and learn to lob/fish on the backhand in addition to chopping. That way if it's too much spin, you retrieve instead of chop. Lots of potential different ways -- but again, I don't think you'll find exactly what you're looking for without some tradeoffs.

**And I have stacks of spectol from 1.0-2.1mm, super spin chop 2 from .3 to 1.8 sponge, butterfly challenger attack 1.5 and 1.9, 802, 802-40, beautry, moristo, and many more... just a fun money sink :clap: so if you enjoy that element of the game, experimenting with equipment, then it's a fine endeavor. If you just want to improve... not so much!

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 04:20 
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I typed a long message and something happened. It's gone now so I'll get straight to the point lol.

I think I'm going to get short pips out of my mind for the time being based on whst you've said and my own thoughts based off this thread. Sometimes just talking about something brings about conclusions in your own mind too.

I think my game is more 'dangerous' with current combo than any I've used before. I'm a wall on backhand and aggressive with forehand. The only two real problems I have with it are 1) reduced variation with long pips and 2) reduced attacking ability with long pips. Point 1 not really relevant in actual point play it seems, as I win through other means on this wing, like heavy spin build up. More of a possible future issue if I encounter players that are more difficult to hold back. But I guess the forgiveness of long pips shines in this area too, should I need it. Point 2 not neccessary to win I don't think, as my forehand has gotten a lot stronger to compensate for not being able to hit the backhand as much, plus it's more about how I want to play, so I need to find a way of incorporating it still.

Types of players that were difficult before are less difficult now. I think short pip attackers and possibly anti spin attackers might be more difficult, but I haven't managed to play any strangely with long pips yet.

Some people I practice with though suggest I go double inverted because my backhand is good, saying I don't need the pimples. It is something I've been thinking about too. Maybe all it would be is a lot of work just to end up at the same stage but with a slightly different toolset. The advantages are canceled out by the disadvantages, with short pips too probably.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 09:17 
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To be another voice in this very fascinating conversation... I've recently started a blog in which I describe my journey going from LP to SP defense. You might get something out it, you might not. Anyways in my blog Def-attack talks about some great references that also might help you further. You can find a link in my signature below.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2019, 14:14 
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Oh also, if you like the grippiness of curl p4 but hate the soft sponge... stiga horizontal 55 has roughly the same amount of friction (so it can generate spin) on a 55 degree sponge, instead of the 20 degree or so.

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2019, 02:46 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Oh also, if you like the grippiness of curl p4 but hate the soft sponge... stiga horizontal 55 has roughly the same amount of friction (so it can generate spin) on a 55 degree sponge, instead of the 20 degree or so.


This is the first time I've heard of this rubber, Stiga Horizontal 55. I came away after playing with P4 for what I felt was enough time to judge it wondering if it would be my rubber of choice if the sponge wasn't so damn soft, maybe even putting p4 topsheet on p1r sponge (I realize SSPC2 has soft sponge too, but figured it being a short pip would make it less annoying).

So my ears have definitely perked up at the sound of Stiga Horizontal 55! P1r might still end up being thr best for me but this definitely sounds worth exploring. Many thanks

I was able to generate nearly as much backspin with P4 in 1.5mm as with Hurricane 3, at least according to feedback. Some even said I was chopping heavier with it, but I think the lower bet clearance was the reason for that. As said as well, could thriw in floats for that shirt pip like variation, though not quite as contrasting, as floats weren't as dead.

Also wonder if the Stiga rubber we ith harder spinge would be OK for hitting too.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2019, 02:47 
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Lorre wrote:
To be another voice in this very fascinating conversation... I've recently started a blog in which I describe my journey going from LP to SP defense. You might get something out it, you might not. Anyways in my blog Def-attack talks about some great references that also might help you further. You can find a link in my signature below.


Thanks for the link. I read through your blog and will post my two cents soon.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 21:00 
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Just tested 802 again and actually had a pretty good feeling for it in a matter of minutes. Chops went higher at first and came off a lot quicker obviously but got the timing going in no time at all. Still went back to P1r though for rest of session. Just more comfortable. Will give it more tries in future sessions and see how I feel about it then.

One interesting thing though, I tried Cloud and Fog III again (think 1.1mm) on a custom made Barna clone. Got it from my dad to test (think it's made in Germany, but forgotten name, will check when I take rubbers off). Cloud abd Fog is nowhere near as spinny as P1r, abd certainly not as spinny as P4 and 802. Well, on this blade it is. It's actually even spinnier than all the rubbers I've just mentioned, though note the other rubbers were on my two Joo blades. It makes me want to test P4 and P1r on it.

I'll probably do a seporate post about the blade as I think it will appeal to some people, the blade. The issue I have with it is not chopping, it's great at thst. Ridiculous spin. It's hitting. It's not slow as such. The issue for me is thst I can feel it bending, or at least it feels thst way, when I strike hard. It feels like it's counteracting the force I'm putting into the shot. And I think it's down to the Barna shape itself. The handle doesn't go up onto the blade surface, so it basically just attaches. Couple that with heavy Chinese rubbers and I think that's the problem here. For myself, I'd be very curious to see if he'd make or does make a Joo style blade dimension wise with the Barna wood.

Skilless_slapper, I'll almost certainly be getting Stiga Horizontal 55 in the near future. Looked into it more and it's got me excited to try it. Nobody seemes to talk about it on here so I'll do a review of it.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 12:39 
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I put up my review of the horizontal 20 on here some time ago. Seems to be a curl p4 or feint 3 clone, close enough.

I'm kind of curious to try the 55 now for a comparison... I use both the horizontal and vertical stiga pips in ox on a number of blades as well. Super controlled, but not a ton of spin variation. I have to twiddle using those to cause more errors.

My thought on short pip chopping is, you compare the style to living and dying by the sword. The very thing which allows you to create more spin and bring about mistakes, is what also causes you to miss more and give up points. Whereas long pips are much safer, offering a sort of neutral return in the sense that you are not dictating the spin a whole lot yourself. And the question becomes... is it easier to loop someone down who's chopping with sp, or is it easier to chop down a looper using sp? I think we all know the answer to that... and so you must be exceptionally good to compete with the big hitters and loopers if you are using sp. I put my other thread up here some time ago about how lame I felt ox chopping was, since I could just keep dinking the ball back and win on pure attrition. Didnt care about the spin etc. So long as I put the ball low enough and placed decently.

I just wonder how many points would actually be gained using sp to change the spins vs using lp to remain consistent and very, very reliable from all positions.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 18:39 
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I've tried Horizontal 55 1,5mm black for a couple of training sessions. From what I can recall: it's a P1-R clone. The short game was a bit better, chopping was a bit harder. I think I left a quick review on OOAK somewhere.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 20:47 
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Lorre wrote:
I've tried Horizontal 55 1,5mm black for a couple of training sessions. From what I can recall: it's a P1-R clone. The short game was a bit better, chopping was a bit harder. I think I left a quick review on OOAK somewhere.


I looked up Horizontal here and couldn't find much. I'll have to check again.

Looking around I've seen that Vertical is an easy to use steady do it all pip, and Horizontal is an extremely spinny long pip, very grippy.

If it is very grippy, especially in 55 degree slonge, yea, it would be harder to chop with then P1r, but it should also produce more of its own spin, like P4.

For me, emergency chops aren't very satisfying with the soft sponge of P4 and much easier with thr harder sponge of P1r. This is one if the reasons I'm really curious about Horizontal. Plus if it close to thr P4 topsheet I'll be able to have more say regarding how much spin I put on thr ball.

If it's a blend of P1r and P4, there might be a good chance it will be my preference.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 20:53 
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Snowman89 wrote:
If it's a blend of P1r and P4, there might be a good chance it will be my preference.


From ym limited experience with it, yeah, you might call it like that.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 21:26 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
I put up my review of the horizontal 20 on here some time ago. Seems to be a curl p4 or feint 3 clone, close enough.

I'm kind of curious to try the 55 now for a comparison... I use both the horizontal and vertical stiga pips in ox on a number of blades as well. Super controlled, but not a ton of spin variation. I have to twiddle using those to cause more errors.

My thoughts on short pip chopping is, you compare the style to living and dying by the sword. The very thing which allows you to create more spin and bring about mistakes, is what also causes you to miss more and give up points. Whereas long pips are much safer, offering a sort of neutral return in the sense that you are not dictating the spin a whole lot yourself. And the question becomes... is it easier to loop someone down who's chopping with sp, or is it easier to chop down a looper using sp? I think we all know the answer to that... and so you must be exceptionally good to compete with the big hitters and loopers if you are using sp. I put my other thread up here some time ago about how lame I felt ox chopping was, since I could just keep dinking the ball back and win on pure attrition. Didnt care about the spin etc. So long as I put the ball low enough and placed decently.

I just wonder how many points would actually be gained using sp to change the spins vs using lp to remain consistent and very, very reliable from all positions.


I agree with all your points.

Short pip vs long pip chopping much like the one handed backhand vs two handed backhand in tennis in my opinion, in terms of risk / reward. Short pips being the single hander.

Whst I mean is this. The single hander in tennis is known for being more difficult to learn, but can open up thr court more and helps with variety. However, it's less stable and combined with being harder to master, it means most use a double hander. More secure. And just plain easier without really affecting your potential.

Essentially, a elite single hander vs an elite double hander might balance out overall, but if in the zone, you'll get more out of the single hander. Think Wawrinka vs Djokovic. The best one hander vs the best double hander. If Wawrinka is not on, he'll make too many errors, but if he's on, hell crush Djokovic's double hander. But you might say Djokovic's backhand is better overall as it's more of a consistent performer.

However, that's when the one hander has been mastered. A weak one hander is weaker than a weak double hander.

I think the same goes with short pip and long pip chopping. I think if you're in the zone, and you have good skills, you'll chop more effectively with short pips. But if you're not in the zone or worse, having a bad day, it will all go wrong. Long pips will be more of a consistent performer, as more forgiving.

I play with a one hander in tennis at a fairly decent level, though not pro. My single hander beats double hander of the same level or even those at a higher level. But it falls apart bad days, as single hander very unforgiving. I've noticed double handers at my level are much steadier in this regard. But I wouldn't switch because I love it, the extra options I have with it.

I felt the same with short pip ox looking back, but now thst I'm on the other side and using long pips, I fear losing the security they give me. If I had learned the double hander and single hander side by side in tennis, maybe I'd feel the same too.

I think if it's a case of feeling like the skill isn't high enough to chop with short pips, then switching to them for a period of time could be incredibly beneficial. In this case, the player would play at a higher level going back to long pips. This is why I wouldn't recommend a young chopper starts off with long pips from the get go. Build the skills then switch to long pips if that's the route they want to go. Otherwise it's too easy to lean on them and this will cap their potential.

For me, I played too far up (considering my ability and time I'd invested) with short pip ox in my opinion, and if I was going to insist on using them, put sponge underneath. I somehow did well and at one point held a world ranking somewhere below a thousand, can't remember now. But I felt more up and down level wise than I do now with long pips and smooth rubber.

I dont know the answer here, should we all go to short pips or long pips. Individual decision, but I'm not even sure for myself. Think maybe a lot aren't. We want all the qualities in one rubber but as you say thst won't happpen.

Was talking to my dad and a strong player I hit with just before and just after the switch to long pips might give me the answer I'm looking for. I struggled with this player with short pip ox (802 on forehand with 1.5mm sponge) greatly, just about scraping by, and he was only using a toy bat thst day as he didn't have his on him. I was under the impression I'd lose to him the next time. The next time I practiced with him, I was using long pips (Feint Long 2 or 3, can't remember now, but used both around thst time). I could see and feel the increase in spin from him on my forehand win, which was still short pips, though 802 1.5mm. But with the long pips? I literally said to myself 'this is easy mode'. I could get back almost everything. It was harder to force errors from him, but I'd say I was around 2-3 points better agsinst him per game. Enough for me to edge him. The bit thst makes this less black and white is thst thr issue I had against him with short pips was with OX short pips on backhand. Didn't hsve same trouble with 802 on forehand in 1.5mm. So would i have been 2-3 points better too if used 802 1.5mm on backhand rather thsh short pips ox?

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 22:12 
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Skilless_slapper
According to whst I've read, Vertical and Horizontal same topsheet with only difference being pip alignment. Stiga very creatively titling them by alignment. So vertical alignment less backspin but more control. Horizontal more backspin but less control.

So if you say Vertical is much like Feint Long 3 and P4, thst looks very promising for me with Horizontal. It doesn't hsve to be as grippy as P4. I think I may like it even if it falls between P1r and P4. Definitely like thst they sell them in 20 snf 55 degree sponges. I think I prefer harder sponge in general so look forward to trying Horizontal 55.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 15:44 
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On top of all that, there is a distinct lack of short pip defenders on the amateur side of things. Talking decent amateurs. I literally can't even name one. Maybe Rachel Yang from USA, but she is still very high level all things considered.

However, you can point to dozens of LP defenders - both at the world top 100s and far down the amateur ranks. And pro play is quite a bit different from amateurs... so tough to find a role model using SP.

Are you just deadset against not twiddling? I'm finding it hard to give up the leniency of long pips, especially the OX for me. For a bumbling oaf like myself, the way and amount you can get away with using LP and still produce a decent shot is comical to me at times. And it's highlighted tenfold when I chop with short pips :lol:

Mental problem there is I don't feel like a chopper... just a dinker. But when twiddling I feel like a titan-chopper! Then it's strategic to use the pips when necessary (not a cop out) and swapping to the inverted is a tactic. Doing that makes the game much more chess-like for me. Because every shot then becomes a challenge for them, and myself. I make a ton more mistakes, since I'm not too good at it currently... but I can feel that the opponent's are under much more pressure, since they have to focus on what I'm doing and can no longer relax by expecting to receive the same ball twice. Downside is, I have to train two rubbers per side and know when to twiddle - which means added anticipation skills.

Having said all that crap, since learning to play OX LP at the table and forehand attack with power... that style seems to be much more lethal for me, and requires far less movement/effort chasing down balls. I just stand there dinking the ball back until hitting a forehand kill. It's just not as fun for me...

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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 21:27 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
On top of all that, there is a distinct lack of short pip defenders on the amateur side of things. Talking decent amateurs. I literally can't even name one. Maybe Rachel Yang from USA, but she is still very high level all things considered.

However, you can point to dozens of LP defenders - both at the world top 100s and far down the amateur ranks. And pro play is quite a bit different from amateurs... so tough to find a role model using SP.

Are you just deadset against not twiddling? I'm finding it hard to give up the leniency of long pips, especially the OX for me. For a bumbling oaf like myself, the way and amount you can get away with using LP and still produce a decent shot is comical to me at times. And it's highlighted tenfold when I chop with short pips :lol:

Mental problem there is I don't feel like a chopper... just a dinker. But when twiddling I feel like a titan-chopper! Then it's strategic to use the pips when necessary (not a cop out) and swapping to the inverted is a tactic. Doing that makes the game much more chess-like for me. Because every shot then becomes a challenge for them, and myself. I make a ton more mistakes, since I'm not too good at it currently... but I can feel that the opponent's are under much more pressure, since they have to focus on what I'm doing and can no longer relax by expecting to receive the same ball twice. Downside is, I have to train two rubbers per side and know when to twiddle - which means added anticipation skills.

Having said all that crap, since learning to play OX LP at the table and forehand attack with power... that style seems to be much more lethal for me, and requires far less movement/effort chasing down balls. I just stand there dinking the ball back until hitting a forehand kill. It's just not as fun for me...


Yep, there will be few short pip defenders for all the reasons we've covered. If we go that route, I think we just need to take influence from those on the world stage. It takes more skill as a general rule to get the same result (much like the one hander vs double hander tennis analogy). Then once you reach a certain level as we've maybe seen with Lorre, you end up just trading who you find easier and who you find harder. As in some styles easier to play when you have short, others with long. The biggest one I can think of is a heavy, slow, strong Samsonov style looper. Much easier to play with long pips. Someone more passive is easier to play eity short pips.

There's an interview with Ding Song on the ittf YouTube channel that's worth a watch it you haven't seen it. Can find it agsin if you can't find it. Basically says the long pips are more of a weakness at elite level and after Joo reached the final of the 2003 world championships, he knew he'd just be playing to make a living after thst. That would be his highest achievement. Long pips being the problem because too predictable. Not only in spins but in terms of shot selection and patterns too. Like you'll always receive with a push etc. He basically doesn't see long pips as being the answer every defender is looking for, a world champion. I'm adding my owh wording but that's basically the jist of it.

Really hit the nail on the head for me, but I think I need to remember thst long pips are not only steady, but effective against most not training at international level. I've already tested p1r against a national level player and while they could handle the pips better, abd keep it in play longer, it was still overall effective I'd say..
.
But I worry that I'm wrong with that statement. I think of myself as an attacker who defends. As in, I wabt to go in for the kill, but I need to create time on the ball to do it. Same in tennis, but how I go about it is different. I create time on the ball ironically by taking it early, putting my opponent on the defense, so I can setup the kill so to speak. Basically, in tabke tennis, I don't want to just endlessly be retrieving.

Not against twiddling, no. Can see myself doing the kind of thing yiure doing as I get better at it. Right now, I'm trying it a bit but I'm way too slow doing it. Comically so. It's something I'm working on. And will probably continue to do so unless I go double inverted.

Regarding you having more success blocking with pips at the table. I tho k these things are nkt linear. As in, differebt approaches don't improve at the same rate. I think till have a higher ceiling with the twiddling chopper attacker style, but will take longer and more time/practice. You'll have a lower ceiling with staying close to the table, but maybe more immediate success depending on the level of the opposition.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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