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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2010, 06:18 
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Yes I agree. I find it very hard to over rule what the eyes are seeing. Its inverted and the stroke looks like something but there is nothing there. No matter how much I try to tell myself to play it as anti or short pips I just can't mentally make the step past what my eyes are seeing, no matter how many times I dump it into the net. This is the hardest type of adjustment for me to make.

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2010, 06:22 
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speedplay wrote:
Since the regional league starts up next week, me and my team mate decided to practice some tonight, and while we were there, a member of another team showed up, so naturally we offered to play him as well.

This gu is ~60 years old, he have been playing TT for at least 40 years so he know's his game, which is, pushing, pushing, pushing and some flat hitting. He is also capable of blocking and counter hitting, but I've never seen him loop, so I believe this is not in his repetoare. The thing is, he plays with some really old rubber's, probably Mendo or Mark V or something simillar and they are almost completely dead. There is still some speed to be found in them, but just like with anti and pips, even when he hits fast, it seems like their is no energy in the ball and it's not possible to just block it back. He is almost unaffected by spin and can only create very little spin on his own. Sounds like an easy opponent, but for some reason, he's not! I have no problems playing against pips or anti, but I really struggle to play against dead rubbers. Had to work my butt of to win first set 12-10, but then I found some holes in hisw defence that I could exploit and won the next set 11-4.

My question here is, what kind of game should I try to play against this guy? Should I continue to load up the spin, even though he is hardly affected by it at all? Should I strive to attack first or wait for his attack?

It just puzzles me that this guy gives me such problems, cause I know that if he used fresh rubbers (even anti or pips) I would destroy him every time. And, I'm not the only one who struggles against him, last year he was the only one who won against the leading player, while he lost to some "basement" player's. TT is a strange game...

I had a friend who found a bat that was 25 years old, and I had a hard time playing him as even if I smashed to his backhand it came back just over the net, I just couldnt belive the reversal, I eventualy made him a legal bat with 388-1 on the backhand and hes just a natural with it lol
Also when he had the old bat I only just beat him but he was loosing against players who I could beat 11-1

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2010, 06:25 
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Speedplay you have obviously have found some of his weaknesses, and can beat him at will.

You should now use his ability to return loaded balls to practice your shots, there is little point looping against someone in practice if they can't return your shots. This is a key point I have to tell juniors when they do counter hit practice, they need to hit a ball that can be returned as it increases the shots they make.

HTH.

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2010, 09:15 
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Speedplay,

the key for players like this is that they do not beat you - you beat yourself. the key is patience. you can try to spin it up all the time - but only if it's your natural game. play your game, don't rush, and it'l come down to you winning based on your ability to out-play him.

as for tactics against guys like this, the famed long flat serve comes to mind. they tend to push these, and push them high.

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2010, 21:33 
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The thing with playing against dead rubbers is they don't generate much of their own energy as you say. As such they can be made to dump the ball in the net by varying the power you throw at them and the angle. As SHFS said you need to be patient, but eventually they will misjudge their own power and racket angle and will either throw the ball short or throw it high for a putaway. Trying to spin them off the table isnt going to be terribly effective as you're more likely to misjudge your own shot. Just keeping the ball low to varying places on the table so they don't catch you out with a quick flat hit, whilst trying to make them reach for the ball thereby restricting the power and comfort in their shot.

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2010, 23:22 
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SHFS already said it. Against such players you are the one that's handing him the points. They usually make points because of errors by their opponents and score few points themself. That's why these players can beat better players who feel that they should attack and therefore make a lot of errors and then lose to a much lesser player who will just keep the ball on the table and have the 'dead rubber' players make the mistake on offensive shots they are not used to playing.

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2010, 01:10 
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speedplay wrote:
WHat bugs me the most is that with anti, the reversal or spin killing effect is always the same, and the same can be said about the ability to generate spin, but with his dead rubbers, it seems like sometimes there is grip and sometimes there's not. I don't understand how any one can play with a rubber like that, but I do know I struggle alot playing against it.
This is the same thing I have observed, namely that these ancient, half-shiny, rubbers have not oxidized evenly, giving their user a multi-surfaced weapon. How they wield it is beyond me (years of practice, I suppose!) but it sure is hard to play against! With such players I hunt and hunt for a weakness and then I exploit it mercilessly. Playing their endless pit-pat game is too often a losing proposition.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2010, 04:41 
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speedplay wrote:
The problem is, he can return it, but it's almost always a no spin return, which I rarely get against other's, so I doubt practicing that against him would be beneficial for me.


This is where I will have to disagree with you. The worst thing to do when trying to improve your game is to prevent players playing certain shots against you just because you have difficulty handing them.

It is better to face them head on, ie. set them up so they play that awkward shot. It will be the only way to learn how to play a better return against it.

A point to remember is that a change in pace, from slow to fast or vice versa is the most difficult type of game to cope with. Force (or rather encourage :) ) your opponent to play those awkward shots in a game (so you are ready for them) and gain confidence in handling them.

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2010, 12:27 
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I think I've missed something here. Speedplay, you raised this thread to discuss playing against these dead rubbers (good topic), but then you now say it may be a waste of time and focus because they're not allowed at regional level where you need to play better against different types of shots (not dead rubbers). It leaves me a little confused. :^)

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2010, 19:24 
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I suppose this is matter of lacking the experience. you learn to play against LP or anti by playing against them. old rubber is something between regular inverted and anti. it is type of rubber of its own, and to learn to play against it would need to train against it, just like with every other rubber. therefore it makes sense it should be banned, there is no much sense to have to train against used rubbers. although...someone could produce factory low-spin rubbers similar to old rubbers that would be interesting

I think that good tactics against such rubbers should be keeping the low spin game. if you play low spin against rubbers without much spin ability, then everything is more predictable to you and you are able to attack with less own mistakes


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2010, 19:43 
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This is a bad style matchup for combination bat players. Maybe better to play this particular guy with double inverted.

Are there any rubbers that play "dead" when they're new?

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2010, 20:08 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
This is a bad style matchup for combination bat players. Maybe better to play this particular guy with double inverted.

Are there any rubbers that play "dead" when they're new?


a rubber like Friendship 729 Super FX on a thin sponge can play very dead. on blocks and hits I mean.

I actually play a game with a lot of dead balls blocking,flipping and hitting very flat. Outlaw is nice rubber for this :rofl:

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2010, 03:40 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
I think I've missed something here. Speedplay, you raised this thread to discuss playing against these dead rubbers (good topic), but then you now say it may be a waste of time and focus because they're not allowed at regional level where you need to play better against different types of shots (not dead rubbers). It leaves me a little confused. :^)


...and I thought it was just me :D

friendship wrote:
I suppose this is matter of lacking the experience. you learn to play against LP or anti by playing against them. old rubber is something between regular inverted and anti. it is type of rubber of its own, and to learn to play against it would need to train against it, just like with every other rubber.


Speedplay you would probably benefit from playing against these rubbers to develop your own tactics, remembering every player is different even if they use the same blade and rubbers.

friendship wrote:
...therefore it makes sense it should be banned, there is no much sense to have to train against used rubbers.


You are the ITTF's and every manufacture's friend :o


friendship wrote:
I think that good tactics against such rubbers should be keeping the low spin game. if you play low spin against rubbers without much spin ability, then everything is more predictable to you and you are able to attack with less own mistakes


A very good suggestion to which I would also add slow speed to...

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2010, 04:31 
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speedplay wrote:
I don't want to spend time to practice my strokes against this particular style of rubber, cause that would probably mess up my game when I play against regular rubbers, which is far more common for me.


Fully understand regarding messing you up for other games. I and expect one or two others have found that league matches where you have to play a low/non spin player ie. LP / Anti followed by a spiny double reverse player is one of the harder transitions to make.

You get in the groove with one, only to find it needs a total rethink for the second.

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2010, 20:05 
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speedplay wrote:
As for spin, I agree to some extent. I don't do heavy backspin against them, cause this is the kind of shot they can attack hard, but for topspin, I love to load them up, as this usually gives them some trouble to keep it on the table. I never open up hard, but open with a heavy spin and then flat hit to either corner of the table and this works for me. So, why did I raise the question? Well, I've found a way that works for me, but perhaps there are easier ways? Or, simply ways to add variation to my game so they don't grow used to it and develop weapons against it.


most simple way is to kill his weak spin balls if you can, to punish his weak rubbers. if you have problem with attacking his flat balls it never gets that simple :P


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