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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2015, 17:41 
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hello
i'm using LP on BH and inverted FH
i feel very confotable playing far from table modern defense style but in our tournments where i play (
amateur leagues)
in those leagues i usually face up styles which hard counter my....
1. allround play (both inverted with a lot of control, usually block and push)
2. LP OX push/block near table (plays short and wide)

ad1. when i loop/attack their push (heavy backspin is hard to attack strongly
so they easy block or counter it)
when do some stuff with LP (swipe, push, punch) it all backs...
in our leagues they are called "walls" because 99% strokes are coming back to you :P

ad2. they play short and wide, my backspins are easy countered by theirs LP OX

in both cases
-when i gave higher ball to provoke them to attack and trying to chop it... they use smash (which is hard to chop :P)
-i need to play close to table to face those styles (so i moved to LP OX as well) but still i feel more comfortable far from table and chopping
-now im trying to develop push/block LP OX style to have higher chances againt those styles


any advices what to do? what road to pick?

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2015, 21:18 
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I think this is a very relevant question.

Long distance chopping defence is only viable when your opponent loops. At many amateur levels, you will regularly meet people who just seldom loop... so your style willl have to change to more allround-style and you could focus a bit more on looping attacks yourself. So-called modern defenders at lower levels will never be modern defenders like those at higher levels where opponents play a looping game by definition.

Giving a high ball to provoke looping is always a bad idea. It's not easy to loop a high ball and it will generally be smashed. You could provoke looping by placing the ball low and far to the other side of the table with some backspin .

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2015, 22:55 
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This is a GREAT question and I’d like to hear form some of the more experienced Mod Def guys on the board. Modern Defense (MD) is almost unusable (as Lorre stated) at the lower levels, sub 1400 or so...

This conundrum was...for me...the # 1 reason I ever EJ'd. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it’s this issue which drives most budding LP defenders to struggle with deciding on equipment. With less experience, I was perplexed between choosing styles where I played at the table or away from the table. The questions I kept asking myself were "Should I attack with my pips, block at the table with the pips, or chop with the pips?" If I leaned one direction equipment-wise, I became impotent in other areas (The dreaded LP trade off).

My latest LP, the 755, which is regarded as a good all-around LP that still chops well, is my latest attempt to mitigate this issue. I’m now in the process of sticking with it for a year.

So, since it’s never about the equipment, what is a middle or lower Modern Defender to do? It’s a given that “practicemore” is the emphasis, but what about style philosophy. Are mid to lower MDs shoe-horning the style into our game inappropriately?

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 00:25 
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Japsican wrote:
Modern Defense (MD) is almost unusable (as Lorre stated) at the lower levels, sub 1400 or so...


1) I'm not Lorre :lol:
2) I'm not only talking about under 1400, but also around my own level (2100-2200) there are opponents (f.e. pushblockers) against whom the pure modern defensive style away from the table (as shown by top level defenders) is just not possible/desirable/best strategy...

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 02:21 
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Japsican wrote:
This is a GREAT question and I’d like to hear form some of the more experienced Mod Def guys on the board. Modern Defense (MD) is almost unusable (as Lorre stated) at the lower levels, sub 1400 or so...

This conundrum was...for me...the # 1 reason I ever EJ'd. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it’s this issue which drives most budding LP defenders to struggle with deciding on equipment. With less experience, I was perplexed between choosing styles where I played at the table or away from the table. The questions I kept asking myself were "Should I attack with my pips, block at the table with the pips, or chop with the pips?" If I leaned one direction equipment-wise, I became impotent in other areas (The dreaded LP trade off).

My latest LP, the 755, which is regarded as a good all-around LP that still chops well, is my latest attempt to mitigate this issue. I’m now in the process of sticking with it for a year.

So, since it’s never about the equipment, what is a middle or lower Modern Defender to do? It’s a given that “practicemore” is the emphasis, but what about style philosophy. Are mid to lower MDs shoe-horning the style into our game inappropriately?

i would not say lower level.. just i meet around 33% allrounds, 33% LP OX/anti and 33% attackers (it depends on tournament, cup, league)
even so, i see a lot when attackers see heavy chops they just start to push ball back (and they switch into more allround play)
so more often i need to be close to the table and use close to the table LP techniques (around 60-70% of time)

other problem is BH equipment, different styles need different equipment, but it is my problem to solve :)
i have some ideas, eg:
1. SP or MP to be more aggressive near the table and attack more (with those SP and MP i will being able to chop)
2. pure spin reversal LP OX (similar as sun jian fei with palio) so far from table classical defense + aggressive push/block near table
in both options i can be: aggressive near the table and do chopping style far from table (depends on situation)


but i just wanted to know it is easy/possible to handle allround play with modern defense (and ur thoughts about it)
so how do u deal with those kind of styles? u must meet sometimes some of those styles

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 04:17 
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Pipsy wrote:
Japsican wrote:
Modern Defense (MD) is almost unusable (as Lorre stated) at the lower levels, sub 1400 or so...


1) I'm not Lorre :lol:
2) I'm not only talking about under 1400, but also around my own level (2100-2200) there are opponents (f.e. pushblockers) against whom the pure modern defensive style away from the table (as shown by top level defenders) is just not possible/desirable/best strategy...

Oh my gosh! My apologies...your darn avatars are so similar. (I've made this mistake before) :lol: :o

So what do you do? Attack with the pips?

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 04:50 
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I agree. Hitters, pushers, blockers are all hard to play modern defence. For me (now using SP with thin slow sponge) I try to play 3rd ball or find out what they do not like. Lobbing can work. Flipping and attacking with inverted. Or hitting hard, no spin with my SP are my favoured tactics.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 07:38 
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vanjr wrote:
I agree. Hitters, pushers, blockers are all hard to play modern defence. For me (now using SP with thin slow sponge) I try to play 3rd ball or find out what they do not like. Lobbing can work. Flipping and attacking with inverted. Or hitting hard, no spin with my SP are my favoured tactics.

i have just tested today MP.. masacre... its almost like inverted.. and so fast, damn too fast, faster than my Tenergy
i used FRIENDSHIP 563 MYSTERY III 1.2mm, i will try to take off sponge from it and play OX (sponge makes it too fast)

vanjr so ur solution is to by more aggressive close to the table
so u change ur style while playing against those players? (do u normally chop far from table with the same setup?)

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 11:36 
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Pipsy wrote:
I think this is a very relevant question.

Long distance chopping defence is only viable when your opponent loops. At many amateur levels, you will regularly meet people who just seldom loop... so your style willl have to change to more allround-style and you could focus a bit more on looping attacks yourself. So-called modern defenders at lower levels will never be modern defenders like those at higher levels where opponents play a looping game by definition.

Giving a high ball to provoke looping is always a bad idea. It's not easy to loop a high ball and it will generally be smashed. You could provoke looping by placing the ball low and far to the other side of the table with some backspin .

+1

With modem defence you should be looking to attack whenever the opportunity arises. Hence, when you face passive players you need to look to hit them off. An opponent has to earn the right to make you defend. if they piddle around you have to punish them.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 15:48 
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garbol wrote:
in those leagues i usually face up styles which hard counter my....

1. allround play (both inverted with a lot of control, usually block and push)
2. LP OX push/block near table (plays short and wide)

ad1. when i loop/attack their push (heavy backspin is hard to attack strongly
so they easy block or counter it)
when do some stuff with LP (swipe, push, punch) it all backs...
in our leagues they are called "walls" because 99% strokes are coming back to you :P

any advices what to do? what road to pick?

1. If they are passive walls, that don't attack much, you should stop any risky shots (swipe, punch, slow loop) that don't work very well against them and just keep the ball in the play and wait for opportunity for your best hard attack. So (1) soft and (2) very hard plays, not many shots in between. If they don't attack, you are not in hurry to do anything.

The bottom line is, if someone can just push you in the death, you are beneath of certain level of play. You must just develop your powerlooping to be effective and consistent enough.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 16:20 
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Roy wrote:
garbol wrote:
in those leagues i usually face up styles which hard counter my....

1. allround play (both inverted with a lot of control, usually block and push)
2. LP OX push/block near table (plays short and wide)

ad1. when i loop/attack their push (heavy backspin is hard to attack strongly
so they easy block or counter it)
when do some stuff with LP (swipe, push, punch) it all backs...
in our leagues they are called "walls" because 99% strokes are coming back to you :P

any advices what to do? what road to pick?

1. If they are passive walls, that don't attack much, you should stop any risky shots (swipe, punch, slow loop) that don't work very well against them and just keep the ball in the play and wait for opportunity for your best hard attack. So (1) soft and (2) very hard plays, not many shots in between. If they don't attack, you are not in hurry to do anything.

The bottom line is, if someone can just push you in the death, you are beneath of certain level of play. You must just develop your powerlooping to be effective and consistent enough.

that advice is quite good to play safe until i will have occasion to hard attack
but i think i'm not patience enought
always i can try to do aka ma lin attack vs push :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SXbaz6aOqo

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 21:12 
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Roy wrote:
The bottom line is, if someone can just push you in the death, you are beneath of certain level of play. You must just develop your powerlooping to be effective and consistent enough.

+1
Being able to consistently loop a long push is a fairly basic requirement for both a modern defender and an allrounder.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 22:38 
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Japsican wrote:
Pipsy wrote:
Japsican wrote:
Modern Defense (MD) is almost unusable (as Lorre stated) at the lower levels, sub 1400 or so...


1) I'm not Lorre :lol:
2) I'm not only talking about under 1400, but also around my own level (2100-2200) there are opponents (f.e. pushblockers) against whom the pure modern defensive style away from the table (as shown by top level defenders) is just not possible/desirable/best strategy...

Oh my gosh! My apologies...your darn avatars are so similar. (I've made this mistake before) :lol: :o

So what do you do? Attack with the pips?


I can relate to this - as many pointed out, there is quite a bit of difference between highlight reels you see on YouTube and what you actually have to deal with at the club.

What I found to work with a varying degrees of success:

- getting aggressive on FH when given a chance - either close to the table or further away. It feels a bit weird with defensive blade, but still works well enough. I now attack every high ball I can on FH.

- if they keep going high to your BH, hitting/looping with LP is becoming a decent option for me. Stepping around and unloading with FH is deeply satisfying as well, unless they block back to the empty corner, but that's another story.

- push rallies - so far I either try to make one more than they can, or wait for something to open up - slow spinny mini loops are still very effective at my level.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2015, 23:12 
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I change my style not only based on the opponent, I even change style in different games. I actually (because of the level of club mates) hardly ever play a FH and BH chopping game.


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 02:44 
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I've been playing a modern defense style for the past 4-5 months at roughly 1400 level and I guess one of the things I've learned is that long pips can really do a lot in the short game, especially in varying the depths and spin on pushes. You can do a lot that would be very difficult if not impossible with inverted. Trying to force a chop-loop rally at this level is not as effective in terms of winning points because high chops get smashed and low chops often get pushed back instead of looped.


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