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Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin - how?
https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35996		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ryoji [ 24 Aug 2019, 04:42 ]
Post subject:  Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin - how?
Beginner here. I noticed that in pro games services are mostly returned by pushing. The following video shows how Michael Maze returns a super spinny serve by simply stretching out his forehand:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgn_vT7vd ... dex=7&t=0s Around 1:30

If I attempt to do that, the ball just flies out of the table. It looks like he is just passively holding the racket but how would this negate the incoming spin? I guess I don‘t understand how a push works but this looks like he is applying zero spin, there is no wrist movement.

If I receive sidespin serves on my BH is extremely angle my bat and just hold it, or I try to flick. On my FH however this doesnt work....
Author:  ziv [ 24 Aug 2019, 04:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
I guess that's exactly what EmRatThich is trying to explain in that video, isn't he?
Author:  Ryoji [ 24 Aug 2019, 04:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
ziv wrote:
I guess that's exactly what EmRatThich is trying to explain in that video, isn't he?


And I try to replicate it but it just won‘t work.
Author:  ziv [ 24 Aug 2019, 05:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
Ryoji wrote:
ziv wrote:
I guess that's exactly what EmRatThich is trying to explain in that video, isn't he?

And I try to replicate it but it just won‘t work.

The answer to this may be very simple and given in the same video at 1:50:
"Pro players train 6-7 hours a day", and you don't.
How many times have you tried to implement the return? Do you have someone who repeatedly serves you short sidespin serves in training? Really, the key may be just repeating the same stroke again and again until you master it.
Author:  keme [ 24 Aug 2019, 05:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
No, it won't work "right out of the box". As said in the video, "Pro players train this for 6-7 h daily until they get it".

That is because it is difficult. As for the 3rd advice given: Both reading the spin to determine the spin axis and finding a stroke which meets that axis are difficult tasks. You need to manage to do both within a split second, AND heed tips 1 and 2 (make sure you hit the ball rising, and in the low energy part of your bat).

So watch the video once more, then practice. Then practice some more. Rest, and practice even more. Repeat tomorrow...
Author:  iskandar taib [ 25 Aug 2019, 03:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
Ryoji wrote:
Beginner here. I noticed that in pro games services are mostly returned by pushing. The following video shows how Michael Maze returns a super spinny serve by simply stretching out his forehand:


I'd disagree. Most attacking players at the top level try to attack serves, using a flick (often a banana flick). However....

Quote:


Around 1:30

If I attempt to do that, the ball just flies out of the table. It looks like he is just passively holding the racket but how would this negate the incoming spin? I guess I don‘t understand how a push works but this looks like he is applying zero spin, there is no wrist movement.

If I receive sidespin serves on my BH is extremely angle my bat and just hold it, or I try to flick. On my FH however this doesnt work....


Correction: this video is SPECIFICALLY for returning short sidespin serves short. I bet if he wanted to a player of his caliber could also easily forehand-flick the ball.

It's actually pretty obvious what's going on at around 1:30... the serve is (from Maze's point of view - note that both he and the opponent are left handers) a right-to-left sidespin serve (anticlockwise as seen from above) with a small amount of backspin. If one holds the bat vertical when receiving, upon hitting the bat, the ball would sling off to the left and down into the net. So he holds the bat slightly open, and angled to direct the ball in the opposite direction (to his right). A slightly loose grip and wrist would also help, I think, especially in the "short" department. If you're a right hander you'd be receiving this serve on your backhand, and you'd do the same thing.. slant the bat so that it'd send the ball to the right if the sidespin is going to send it to the left. This is actually pretty easy to do naturally - imagine how much more difficult it would be if the sidespin were in the other direction - holding the bat at the correct angle would require quite a bit more contortion of the elbow and wrist.

The problem beginners have is 1) figuring out which way the sidespin is going to make the ball bounce when it hits your racket and 2) recognizing whether there is topspin or backspin on the ball. 1) is considerably easier than 2), and can be learned very quickly. You'll never see a top player miss the table because he/she didn't know which way the sidespin was going. However you actually do see top players dump a serve into the net or return it long because they misread the top/back spin. I've seen Ma Long do it on occasion.

Iskandar
Author:  WorkoutMontage [ 26 Aug 2019, 13:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
Maze is going against the spin, you can see the bat moving slightly to the side, but his returns are quite high in this video, probably because it's just a demonstration. It works because he is contacting the ball closer to its side, thinly and early, with soft hands.
Author:  iskandar taib [ 26 Aug 2019, 13:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
I suppose it could be put that way - going against the spin, as opposed to moving the racket with the spin. It doesn't actually "negate the spin" (as per the title of the thread), it actually sends back the opposite spin.. in this case the incoming ball has anticlockwise (as seen from above) sidespin, with backspin, it comes off Maze's racket spinning clockwise, with some backspin. Sort of like a mirror.

Going "with the spin" would require doing a fast "strawberry" flick - the ball coming back would still be turning anticlockwise and would now have some topspin. This is a MUCH more difficult shot to execute and would be difficult to keep short - in fact you'd want to send the ball back long and with speed.

Iskandar
Author:  TryHard [ 13 Dec 2019, 16:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
I know I’m a bit late to this discussion but wanted to add a small thing. For me, it is often helpful to watch where the opponent’s racquet makes contact with the ball, and try to mimc the contact. For example, if the opponent does a pendulum sidespin-backspin serve and hits the ball in the bottom hemisphere on the left side, from my perspective I would make contact on the bottom hemisphere right side. This reflects the spin back in a somewhat easy to control way. You still have to have good touch to keep it short. This is often what happens in the scenario you mentioned, reflecting the spin.

If the opponent does sidespin reverse pendulum (making contact on the right side of the ball from their perspective), you could make contact on the left side of the ball (from your perspective) to reflect the spin. Of course, when it comes to pure sidespin and side-topspin, it’s probably easier to just topspin the ball.
Author:  iskandar taib [ 26 Dec 2019, 13:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
To be honest - learning to passively return sidespin isn't difficult at all. It's certainly within the reach of 1000 level players. 1000 level players are also capable of producing sidespin serves, so it's something other 1000 level players have to learn to handle quite early.

What IS difficult is attacking those same serves.

Iskandar
Author:  TryHard [ 31 Dec 2019, 17:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Pros return most serves with a push that negates spin -
Recently, coach has been working with me on keeping returns short. It’s as I mentioned above, making contact in the right position on the ball, but one thing I didn’t mention and it might be the most important. You have to try to catch the ball right off the bounce to keep it short. So you have to predict where the ball will land and be in position over the table, with your racquet at the proper angle, before it lands.

iskandar taib wrote:
To be honest - learning to passively return sidespin isn't difficult at all. It's certainly within the reach of 1000 level players. 1000 level players are also capable of producing sidespin serves, so it's something other 1000 level players have to learn to handle quite early.

What IS difficult is attacking those same serves.

Iskandar


Definitely not easy to do, but simpler shot in my opinion than trying to just counter the spin. I treat sidespin-topspin and sidespin similarly, since they both want to kick out and up from the racquet. Coach says “make a roof” (go over the top of the ball) and “take over the spin” (use your own topspin to negate the other spin and direct the ball). It helps to make that roof a little slanted toward the side that the server made contact on.

Sorry if this is all pointless and confusing. It sounded good in my head :lol:
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