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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2024, 05:35 
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This is probably my last attempt to create any sort of dialogue, as the forum has been pretty dead for quite some time.

Anyways, here is my dilemma. I have been working on developing a decent forehand chop, despite playing the Gionis/Filus style for years. I started working on it a couple of years ago to become a better practice partner to our junior players, and lately, I've been noticing I can hold my own, i.e., chop several in a row, even at the highest levels when practicing with my coach (he's a 2550+ player).

When playing MATCHES vs high-level players, I do have a hard time deciding when to play my normal "Gionis" style vs chopping both sides with occasional FH attacks (think of Yuto Muramatsu). If you have been watching Ma Te play, he actually does this a lot: he chops two wings with some opponents and then does not FH chop even once with others. I cannot figure out for the life of me what makes him decide one vs the other

:^)

Any thoughts?

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2024, 06:44 
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Well, then - I do have somewhat similar (or not?) dilemma. I find my infamous 'no spin' FH chop to be super effective in practice: everyone sends it long, because despite my very serious arm motion, ball is basically dead on return. :rofl:

And yet I never use it in matches.

That does not answer your question though. Perhaps Ma Te or similar folks do know who has trouble with heavy backspin on FH and who does not?

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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2024, 14:51 
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Hi pgpg,

I call that Ma Long's favorite shot - the no-spin chop that looks like it is heavy.

Sometimes, he gets pulled way to far FH and ball goes to his BH where he cannot attack, so he does a no spin chop that looks much heavier and pros hit it out... OK, this is a BH no-spin chop, but it is in similar circumstances with same effect.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2024, 23:52 
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pgpg wrote:
Well, then - I do have somewhat similar (or not?) dilemma. I find my infamous 'no spin' FH chop to be super effective in practice: everyone sends it long, because despite my very serious arm motion, ball is basically dead on return. :rofl:



Yeah, I know the shot you're referring to. In fact I find it to be "harder" (not harder, but just more effort really) to generate spin than to send a dead chop...we were just talking about this with my new coach. He's like "Your fh chops are usually no spin. Do you know how to chop with spin? " And then the next two chops he loops into the net.
:lol:

For me I brush either under, for spin, or brush the back of the ball for some fast, dead chops.

So yes, this stuff is super effective.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2024, 02:23 
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Fh chops with and without spin are very effective .Especially,those long low no spin balls to the fh.

My theory is that if a player stops chopping on the fh is just because the oppoment is outplaying him.


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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2024, 07:03 
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charmander defender wrote:
Fh chops with and without spin are very effective .Especially,those long low no spin balls to the fh.

My theory is that if a player stops chopping on the fh is just because the oppoment is outplaying him.


I understand what you mean, but what about Gionis, Filus and Hou Yingchao who NEVER chop on the FH... and what about Ma Te who choses to chop with some opponents while playing Gionis style with others. Btw, this is all while playing in the Chinese Super League.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2024, 07:21 
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notfound123 wrote:
charmander defender wrote:
Fh chops with and without spin are very effective .Especially,those long low no spin balls to the fh.

My theory is that if a player stops chopping on the fh is just because the oppoment is outplaying him.


I understand what you mean, but what about Gionis, Filus and Hou Yingchao who NEVER chop on the FH... and what about Ma Te who choses to chop with some opponents while playing Gionis style with others. Btw, this is all while playing in the Chinese Super League.


Perhaps because they (Gionis, Filus etc.) are 'modern defenders'? Classic - defend everything, modern - defend on BH, and then you have your usual attackers, for a rather primitive classification of TT players. Which by the way makes Ma Te 'all around defender' and somewhat of an exception, since apparently he can do both.

May be what you really are asking - why does modern defense exist?

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2024, 13:49 
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I've been pondering this question recently myself. I play at a much lower level than y'all (1500-1700 USATT), and have been wondering if there's certain "scenarios" where players prefer one stroke to another. I personally am okay at FH chopping slower, spinnier loops, but struggle against anything fast. Against drives, I usually fish & look for weaker balls to counterloop or chop. At the top level they chop those fast shots without issue, but at least for me if my opponent doesn't show a slower, spin-focused loop I almost completely abandon my FH chop.

From an amateur perspective, does anyone else limit their forehand chop based on the type of incoming ball? If so, do you have your own internal "rules" on when you should be playing one stroke versus another?


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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2024, 06:46 
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I think everyone limits their FH chop depending on the incoming ball :D

It's much more demanding to always be in a position to FH chop, compared to a quick fish or lob. My take on it, comes down to how comfortable they are with the other player's rhythm. Do they anticipate the big shots quick enough to be in a good position to chop? Or is the skill gap/style match-up there too great, so a safer fish action is warranted.

E. Timina the female chopper coach from the Netherlands said the FH chop is not used as much, because it's more difficult to put the ball long/deep when doing so.

You might ask the same question of... why doesn't ever chopper twiddle and chop/hit with pips on both sides?! Just a difficult thing to do at the top end... have to pick their strengths and try to maximize.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2024, 15:08 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
You might ask the same question of... why doesn't ever chopper twiddle and chop/hit with pips on both sides?! Just a difficult thing to do at the top end... have to pick their strengths and try to maximize.


I think picking the absolute best shot is key. Wang Yang never hits with his backhand pips, and it has to be a tactical choice, because I am sure he can. Gionis and Filus don't chop on the forehand because it is a tactical choice - the variation from chopping to a fishing topspin is harder to deal with that continually chopping. If you chop on both forehand and backhand, against a top quality player who rarely misses a loop, how will you score a point?


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2024, 02:00 
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Tactical against who, though?

Most all top female defenders... actually, I can't think of any who aren't, do chop on their forehand very frequently. It's only on the men's side where forehand chopping is not done much at the highest levels.

So just that factor alone, I'm going to assume it has to do with the strength/speed/power of the men's game vs women's. Wang Yang chops on the FH, but he's not really much of a threat to the best players. Whereas on the women's side, you've got some much higher ranked FH choppers - and zero modern defenders.

Also, some players are easier to fool going from chops to deadball returns. Some thrive in the fish/top spin returns etc. so really comes down to style match up.

From what I've seen, there are much fewer FH male choppers (unless you go down the rating a bit) and virtually zero modern defender women choppers.

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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2024, 15:40 
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That is an excellent point about the differences in choppers between the men's and women's game. It must be something about the men's game having more power, and maybe spin? But, that doesn't quite explain why forehand chopping would not be able to handle that power, but backhand chopping is able to. Shiono and Joo used to chop with their forehand, but that style has almost disappeared.


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2024, 23:47 
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allencorn wrote:
but that style has almost disappeared.

yes, of course.Due to the plastic ball and the limitations on pips.

Joo would not make it top 10, not even 30 if he were to compete now .He himself claimed he would be using SPs in this new era of hatred for pips


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2024, 00:13 
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And let's not forget Yuto Muramatsu. As you all know, he chops both sides. He is still "alive" and well. His game was A+ last year when he was in the top 5 in the Bundesliga. This year, he is not playing as well, but I would guess he is still between Top 50 and 100 in the world.

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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2024, 06:35 
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have you asked your coach? maybe he has some high level insight :p

ive actually thought about this question at some point but since im clueless and not good, im incapable of expanding on this so i forgot about it... glad to see someone else bringing this up

Maybe it's because forehand chopping adds another dimension of layers/options/tactics on the FH side, but you need to first be stable enough with it in matchplay...? just firing off a shot into the rabbit hole, wild guess; i have no actual idea :(

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