OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I know its a very old post, but I just wanted to thank the coach for that tidbit. He posted it twice, and until I picked up the blade, I didn't hit home for me how important it is.

Now that I see it, I realize that its what I kinda have been doing SOMETIMES, that I wasn't thinking about to get the backhand shot to work. That backhand shot, with left handed top/sidespin is just wickedly fast, and sending it down the righty's backhand line spinning out and away makes it tough for them to get to, and they can't tell if I'm going to aim it there, or at their elbow, which spins into their body, or if I'm going to go cross corner wide to their forehand, which is also wickedly fast and spinny with more topsin, as compared to the slower chop, reversed spin pips balls or fast nospin smacks I more typically reply with from the backhand side.

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT 1684 left, Lost it all by playing sick and hurt.
No legs left, no more backing up, just smash it!
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Spinlord Waran Short Pips
BH: Joola Badman Reloaded 0X

Can you post a picture of the grip? I have played Seemiller style, but can't figure out what Danny was saying.
Thanks
tOD

I think someone that plays that grip normally and well should post the pic, not me.

I *THNK* I understand, but even after getting close to 2 yrs of trying, I still only rarely am able to successfully use the Seemiller backhand attack in a game. When I do, it is absolutely devastating for my opponent, because the shot is literally *SOOOO* fast that they usually don't even know what's happened, and its not unusual to get a comment like "What the H--- was THAT?". There is a CCRRAACKK sound and a bullet side or side/top shot zings by them. After that they have no idea what to expect next if they hit a ball over there, so they get very careful, by comparison, and that usually means I get to control the play, and as a result, it has literally turned around matches for me against people 100-200 points above me that play me real tough.

Only rarely does it come back, but alas, I don't use it often because too many times I go long and miss off the end. I try to use it when playing lower level players where I can always make up the points in the end to try to get it working, and as time goes by I'm getting better at it, a little bit at a time. One of these days it will improve to where it is reliable, and then there will be trouble at the table, LOL.

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT 1684 left, Lost it all by playing sick and hurt.
No legs left, no more backing up, just smash it!
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Spinlord Waran Short Pips
BH: Joola Badman Reloaded 0X

[quote="Old-Man-Southpaw"]I think someone that plays that grip normally and well should post the pic, not me.

Thanks,

I just can't picture the thumb position.

tOD

My interpretation is that it closes the racket face more than if the thumb was all the way up onto the blade. So, as I see it, when hitting Seemiller BH hard topspin, I balance/hold the blade at about 1/2 way up my thumb.

The problem is that I am not playing this way much, and nobody that does has ever showed me how, so I don't think its a good idea for me to be giving advice.

Maybe ask hookshot?

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT 1684 left, Lost it all by playing sick and hurt.
No legs left, no more backing up, just smash it!
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Spinlord Waran Short Pips
BH: Joola Badman Reloaded 0X

So can anyone, please, explain what this means?
tOD

What's devistating about a Seemiller style BH where your thumb is resting on the opposite side the back of your blade to you forefinger (so your index finger & thumb almost form a V, with the other 3 fingers wrapping around the handle), is that the stroke is so short, it's really hard to predict which direction the ball is being sent. It's a great finishing shot if you get the right ball.

The downside is that being a super compact stroke, you can't generate nearly as much topspin, so it's only really effective with balls higher than the net.

Yes, you can loop low topspin or underspin balls with lots of wrist (but still less spin than a good shakehand BH), but the more normal ball that results doesn't cause problems, unless your opponent wasn't watching and thinks you just fake looped with your pips.

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I just went back to this thread and was reading some of the excellent posts here. In my Seemiller grip, I extend my index finger straight up the back of the paddle (at about a 1 o'clock direction, with 12 o'clock being in a straight line from the handle to the center of the tip). I use my backhand drive with inverted sparingly, as I haven't mastered a consistent topspin drive yet. I thought that perhaps the reason for my inconsistency was that with only one finger extended up the back of the paddle, and not two fingers, the angle of my stroke was not consistent, resulting in an inconsistent trajectory.

But then one day, I was trying to really put a lot of topspin on the ball, and I found out what the problem was. For those who play a regular backhand stroke, this will be "Basic Table Tennis Strokes 101". On a backhand stroke, you have to bring the paddle back a bit before stroking forward, so that you get the power and blade speed that you need at the moment of contact, for a more dynamic shot. When this is not done, you have more of a push than a stroke when you contact the ball, if that makes sense.

So, I simply cocked my wrist back a bit before making my Seemiller backhand stroke, and, *voila*, I suddenly found the secret to a much more consistent stroke. It is more difficult to do this with a Seemiller grip, given the lack of flexibility one has with this grip, and of course you cannot generate near the power as with a conventional backhand grip. But just that little bit of a backswing made all the difference. I am thinking that the reason is this: without a backswing, the moment the ball hits the rubber, if the blade is not moving with sufficient speed, I am at the mercy of the amount of spin on the ball, and it will come off of my blade at varying trajectories. If, however, I start with a good backswing, so that when the rubber meets the ball it is already coming forward with good acceleration, then I override the spin and dictate the direction that it will travel. Am I correct on this?

I have never had any formal table tennis coaching or training (which is why my game is so unorthodox), and I've just learned as I went along. I'm sure there are still many technical flaws in my strokes; however, I am continuing to learn. It is amazing, when one has played this game for several decades, that finding a simple technique (like a little more backswing) can improve one's game so much. The problem is that I just need to imprint this backswing into my muscle memory. My wrist still wants to be too lazy and just drive forward from a "straight-wrist" position.

I'd like to hear from the other Seemiller players. Do you have much of a backswing, cocking your wrist back as far as possible before coming forward, or do you drive the ball from a "straight wrist" position?

_________________
USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Hurricane 8 hard black BH - Grass DTechs OX red
Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red
Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Hi Jim,

I always cock my wrist back, mine is a short explosive stroke, contacting the ball 2/3rds of the way through my wrist "range". But because my grip is a little different from yours, I can't cock it back as far (I have less wrist range), as your version allows. You should be able to get more power than me. I use/used a really light balsa bat to allow this, or I couldn't get high bat tip speed during this short stroke length.

Once successful, it was my single best weapon at the table. Only short underspin and full speed drives/loops were immune to it. I would win more points against long and half long balls than I would with a f/h loop/attack, because it had good (for close to the table) speed/spin, and opponents couldn't tell which direction the ball would go in.

I think your version will allow more power. The only real plus for my version (index finger and thumb split to each side of the blade) compared to yours, is that I have a lot of fine angle control, so adjusting for the incoming spin or aiming at a small table "window" is easier. I also confidently b/h block with a closed angle, almost smothering the ball off the bounce. I think I'd struggle to do this out on my BH side with a finger up the back of the bat. Having said that, my weakerst blocking is still my far b/h (ie if my body isn't behind the bat & I'm stretching). Shake b/h blocking is better IMO.

Cheers.

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Hexer HD 1.9
Hexer Pips 1.9

Member of Anastasia's Fan Club

I get tremendous speed and spin with the shot, but the timing needs to be perfect, and its hard to control the racket angle well enough with only the one finger on the back.

So even though I've been trying for a couple years, the shot exists, and gets practiced, but doesn't land consistently enough to give me the confidence to use it in matches. In addition I need to recognize the right ball for it is incoming and get the paddle over to backhand with forehand rubber beforehand, and once that decision is made there probably isn't time to switch and use backhand rubber instead. So its a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" problem, and the lower success percentage causes, lower confidence, which causes it only to be used consciously when way ahead in a game, just to practice it and try to improve it, not because I expect it to win the point, as it should be, and until I expect it to win the point, it will be difficult to get myself to use it, and won't get used enough to really get fine tuned into my game.

Its a shame though, because its effects on my opponent can be demoralizing and devastating if they are already befuddled by the pips balls and then they occasionally get something wickedly fast and spinny screaming in from my backhand side. I wish I could play only players that are big underdogs for a few months so I would get more opportunities to use it without losing games or matches, and then I think it would eventually get better to where I could use it normally.

To be honest, I have never had any coaching on it, and I don't know anyone that has to ask. I'm not sure if I do a backswing on it or not, but will make a conscious effort to try that, and see if that helps. If I could just get it to work a bit more consistently, I think I could get "over the hump" with it and have a nice, needed addition to my backhand shot arsenal.

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT 1684 left, Lost it all by playing sick and hurt.
No legs left, no more backing up, just smash it!
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Spinlord Waran Short Pips
BH: Joola Badman Reloaded 0X

Thanks, Shoebox and Old-Man-Southpaw, for your thoughts on this, and for explaining the kind of strokes you use. One more question...I've always used at least a 2.0 thickness softer sponge for my inverted rubber, because I like to loop. But, the throw angle seems a little high with a softer sponge. Shoebox, I see that you use a rubber with a medium-hard sponge--does that help you drive your Seemiller backhand shot in a more linear direction? Soft thick sponges can sometimes be a bit bouncy, and I seem to lose accuracy. Of course, maybe that problem will take care of itself when I get better at hitting my backhand as I described in my earlier post. But again, do either of you think that a medium hard or hard sponge will help this shot to be more linear?

_________________
USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Hurricane 8 hard black BH - Grass DTechs OX red
Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red
Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Hmm, my experience is that with harder sponge, I simply need to be a touch more accurate with the ball contact point, but otherwise it worked/works fine. I didn't really have an issue either way, and found I easily adjusted to different throw angles with a bit of practice. Again- fine tuning bat angle is the strengh of my grip version (but I pay for it in other ways).

Where I did run into problems was with thinner sponge. 1.8mm was OK with med-hard sponges, but thinner created huge problems with the angle changing dramatically if the ball hit the wood. I found this to be a far greater issue than usual, when performing this stroke.

Getting the most out of all of the incoming top spin is important, when you can't generate as much yourself, so sponge thickness became usually important. It wasn't an issue when opening, but against fast incoming topspin, the stroke had to be perfect with 1.5mm & was too unreliable for me to stay with thinner sponged rubbers. (I like chopping on my f/h, hence trying 1.5 many times.) I felt more comfortable with 2.0 when trying softer sponge, and have now given up any serious attempt at a mixed game that included chopping away from the table.

As a personal journey update, using this stoke has made me want to do even more with my b/h (my naturally stronger side), so I'm now exploring b/h SP (ie Leopard & Killer 1.5) with a shake grip. If I do go back to Seemiller, it would be with something I can still attack on with my b/h (ie TSP P2) so that I can attack two different ways with a b/h dominated game.

_________________
Custom Re-Impact OFF
Hexer HD 1.9
Hexer Pips 1.9

Member of Anastasia's Fan Club

Same story. Western grip tennis player who picked up ping pong in the early 70's and automatically used Seemiller grip. Didn't play from 1976-2013 and came back to a whole new world of bat and rubber choices. My current USATT rating (1913) is 585 below Danny's so you can take my input with a 585 gram grain of salt.

Since returning to table tennis I have experimented with many dozens of bats and anti-spin rubbers. My style is much more like Eric Boggan's (blocking and pick-hitting) than it is like Danny's (power looping). Neither is a fair comparison to them. (I'm terrible at making comparisons. I guess I'm a lot like a taco that way.)

My current setup is the Hallmark Combo bat (http://www.paddlepalace.com/Blades-Shak ... cts/7/0/33). I have also used the Aurora. I have tried about ten combo bats and ten bats from defense to offense (Boggan's blade was fast).

I use Xiom Vega Europe 2.0 on my f/h. I've tried about 20 others, and I can usually adjust without too dramatic of consequences, but I do best with Vega Europe.

Here is where my game is different. I prefer 2.0 anti with slow sponge. I allows me to hit consistently. But I have to put more energy into it. The spin reversal is not nearly what can be attained with Ox or 1.0 anti, but I can't control those - my timing isn't sharp enough. And besides, spin reversal doesn't bother most players above 1800 rating. With thicker anti I can also flip short serves and block or chop pretty easily.

I have used a dozen anti's: My current favorite is Joola Toni-Hold 2.5. My next favorite is Nittaku Best Anti 2.0. Then Juic Neo anti. Then Butterfly Super Anti 2.0 (same one I used in the 1970's). I have tried Neubauer, Tibar, Hallmark Mirage and many others.

Besides being able to hit more consistently with thicker anti, it slows down power loops and allows me to get greater angles and to move my opponent in and out instead of just side-to-side. There is a great speed variation between my anti on the backhand of a combo blade and the inverted on the faster side of a combo blade. If I pull back slightly on contact I can take a strong loop and drop-shot the return.

The disadvantage is that my anti hits don't zip past players, and they eventually learn that the hits don't have much spin, so they just roll them back deep. This, of course, is very annoying and it requires me to hit it again (sometimes with anti, sometimes with inverted). The second hit with anti is often more dead than the first, and that one is often returned into the net.

I hope this helps.

btw: I'm also a member of the Anastasia Volkova fan club, and the entire Irkutsk table tennis club here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpg5UO ... LVg/videos

Some really nice videos there. Is that a dedicated video channel for the club?

PS Welcome the forum!

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The YouTube channel is owned by Dmitriy Raspopin. For several years he has posted videos every few days of club activity (8 videos were posted in the last 36 hours), and some local tournament play. He edits them as well as anyone I've seen, never showing "between points" and sometimes showing great points in slow motion. Most of the videos are 2-5 minutes long. If you sort the videos by "most popular" you will find near the top some (but not all) of the videos with Anastasia. The general level of play that Dmitriy posts is very high.

Their culture is clearly different from that of my local club in the USA. At my club we know how to be a good loser. A good loser swears loudly, throws his bat on the ground and kicks any small animals or children nearby. If a loser doesn't do these things he deprives the winner of most of winning's pleasure.