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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 13:14 
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I'm sure many of the pips and anti players have received some nasty comments at times from other players about their equipment, which in a way is a form of discrimination. Double inverted are by far the majority among players, and at times we're told by some that we're using it to 'hide our weaknesses' or 'limiting our potential'.

Anti players seem to be a minority here compared to pimple players. My question is do pimple players discriminate against anti players? Do pimple players like to point out to anti players, how anti limits their potential compared to pimples, just like inverted players sometimes point out to pimple players how their equipment limits their potential?

It's something I had not considered. When I meet pimple or any players during my travels, I'm always keen to chat to them, and I'm sure I'm guilty myself of sometimes asking why the anti players does not use pimples, as you have more options with pimples.

Anti does have some weaknesses or limitations compared to inverted and pimples (but they have significant advantages as well), so they're not inferior in any way, and they deserve the same respect as every other equipment or style.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 13:44 
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I'm not aware of any discrimination. I just dont see many anti players around these days. Above a certain level I actually do think they are inferior to LPs. Anti is terribly easy to play against.

Of course a class chopper can do ok with anti but I would suggest he would win by virtue of his class rather than thru any benefits of the rubber. Anti choppers are still very easy to play against.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 14:51 
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Anti is terribly easy to play against.


That is what I hear alot. This is also why I do not try to post about anti. Anti can be used many different ways and many that say anti is easy to play against is because they tried it to replace pips and it did not work for them.

I played so many players in China from beginners to provincial level, I know it gives trouble even at high levels. Perhaps I should add, "when used the way I use it". That means Seemiller grip where I can still use inverted on the backhand side. I have tried the same bat with shakehands and then the anti becomes a liability for me.

The better the looper is, the better my anti works against them. There are ways to vary the spin, not as much as with pips but I count on change of pace more anyway.

Back to the title; Do we discriminate against anti?
While there has been good things said about a certain girl player that uses anti, most comments about anti are negative. Unless the person using anti you played, was the same level as you, how can you say it is easy to play against? If they are the same level as you, then they are not any eaiser to play against than you are for most people. You just have not played an equally rated anti player.
So Yes, I do feel some discrimination about anti on the forum. Unintensionall or uninformed I think, but still there. :)


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 14:57 
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haggisv wrote:
Anti players seem to be a minority here compared to pimple players. My question is do pimple players discriminate against anti players? Do pimple players like to point out to anti players, how anti limits their potential compared to pimples, just like inverted players sometimes point out to pimple players how their equipment limits their potential?

Really it's a misnomer to put all anti players into the same group, just as it is to group all long pips players together.

Both LP and anti can be used for 1) disruptive blocking at the table, 2) aggressive play at the table, 3) chopping off the table. And there are specific types of LPs designed for all these purposes.

Based on my observations, both LPs and antis seem about equally effective for an aggressive game at the table. Choppers seem to favor LPs at the highest level, but there are also very high level anti players albeit far fewer in numbers.

I can personally speak from the disruptive blocking perspective.

Since the frictionless ban, I have gone back and forth between long pips and frictionless-replacement antis, and for the blocking game the lesser friction long pips ARE DEFINITELY BETTER than the first generation of smooth antis for most people. That's not discrimination, that is a fact.

I'm no lover of friction LPs, however, and the second generation frictionless-replacement antis such as the Neubauer ABS and Anti Special, Der Materialspezialist Nightmare and Joola Timeless are closing the gap. Starting later this week I will become an anti player again as I evaluate the Joola Timeless. I will not hesitate to bid farewell to grippy LPs when I am satisfied that frictionless antis are "there." I believe frictionless antis are the future for blocking at the table unless FLPs come back into the game.

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 15:05 
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I get the feeling you are talking about an anti "like Super Block" to play a game like PB does.
I do not play like that at all. I am a double winged looper with anti to throw a change of pace in and return of serve, 'sometimes". None of the pips I tried can short block hard loops like anti. Certainly none with sponge which is what the pip players say is required for good pip play, OX being too easy to play against.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 15:08 
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Good points from both of you, but I was referring to discrimination towards anti players, because we may feel that anti may not be their best choice.

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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 15:18 
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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 15:19 
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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 15:43 
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haggisv wrote:
Good points from both of you, but I was referring to discrimination towards anti players, because we may feel that anti may not be their best choice.

As far as I am aware the top anti-player in Victoria is ranked 50. I doubt if anyone actually thinks about what he uses but IMO he should not use anti as he appears to get virtually no benefit from it at all (except the inexperienced players who don't know how to play against it). He has quite a decent BH loop when he twiddles but when he uses the anti he just becomes a sitting duck He's a very nice guy and I wouldn't think he would suffer any form of discrimination through being an anti player.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 15:57 
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Yes, he plays shakehands. That is a huge difference. I do think anti is a weakness used with shakehands.
You say he becomes a sitting duck with anti but has a good backhand loop with inverted. That says something about the player, not the anti. :)


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2011, 16:05 
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hookshot wrote:
Yes, he plays shakehands. That is a huge difference. I do think anti is a weakness used with shakehands.
You say he becomes a sitting duck with anti but has a good backhand loop with inverted. That says something about the player, not the anti. :)

I agree on both points.


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 05:34 
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Quote:
Of course a class chopper can do ok with anti but I would suggest he would win by virtue of his class rather than thru any benefits of the rubber.

No rubber wins points for a player, and players who tend to think rubbers do, are using LP... What you are actually saying is that this player would win more easily if he didn't use anti. So he is making it hard on himself? He should use LP instead? Because he would do better with LP? If you can substantiate that, I will return from anti to LP... I don't think you or anyone can, though. There is indeed a common, or perhaps vulgar, misconception about antispin rubbers, existing among players using LP to block mostly passively close to the table, as they did with frictionless LP. For them, certainly, there is no antispin rubber that can take the place of, say, Neubauers Superblock. However, if an anti is used in active defense mixed with attack close to the table, according to Sun Jianfei, member of the Chinese national team, quoted here on the forum, it is better than any LP. He also said he played Ma Lin, Ma Long, Wang Hao and the other members of the team for a year, as a sparring partner equalling Joo Se Hyuk, using Friendship 804, the worst anti there is. If he could do that, and be of use at that level, in my opinion any real anti would work for anyone trying to play any style of modern defense. So, yes, anti-players are discriminated against, out of sheer lack of knowledge.

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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 06:45 
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The best thing about anti is that others seldom check your bat lol, I used Butterfly Absorber ans yasaka anti power for 8-9 years becuase I had a frozen shoulder, I think that it I had learned more tricks the Absorber would have been much more effective, but the antipower although good for attacking serves wasn't as good for blocking, I would have had much more descrimination against me as a LP player, especially when I showed them the name of the rubber before playing "cloud and fog" and watch the haze go over thier eyes, Dr evil and thier knees tremble,
I have this person Ive played against who uses anti forehand and I said before the game "have you got normal rubber" he said "yep" tricky old fella lol

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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 07:55 
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Kees wrote:
Quote:
Of course a class chopper can do ok with anti but I would suggest he would win by virtue of his class rather than thru any benefits of the rubber.

No rubber wins points for a player, and players who tend to think rubbers do, are using LP... What you are actually saying is that this player would win more easily if he didn't use anti. So he is making it hard on himself? He should use LP instead? Because he would do better with LP? If you can substantiate that, I will return from anti to LP... I don't think you or anyone can, though. There is indeed a common, or perhaps vulgar, misconception about antispin rubbers, existing among players using LP to block mostly passively close to the table, as they did with frictionless LP. For them, certainly, there is no antispin rubber that can take the place of, say, Neubauers Superblock. However, if an anti is used in active defense mixed with attack close to the table, according to Sun Jianfei, member of the Chinese national team, quoted here on the forum, it is better than any LP. He also said he played Ma Lin, Ma Long, Wang Hao and the other members of the team for a year, as a sparring partner equalling Joo Se Hyuk, using Friendship 804, the worst anti there is. If he could do that, and be of use at that level, in my opinion any real anti would work for anyone trying to play any style of modern defense. So, yes, anti-players are discriminated against, out of sheer lack of knowledge.

When chopping with inverted you can generate your own (heavy) spin and also float. The floats can be especially effective because the difference between them and the heavy chops is significant. When chopping loops with LP one can chop very heavy due to the reversal effect. When chopping with anti however it is not possible to generate as much backspin as the other two rubbers and in this sense anti is one dimensional compared to LP and inverted. Every ball is relatively easy to loop and it is much harder to stop players looping hard. Of course a class player with anti is still a class player but it doesn't change the fact that anti is easy to play against. Do all the top choppers in the world not use anti due to a sheer lack of knowledge?


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2011, 15:42 
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carbonman wrote:
...When chopping with anti however it is not possible to generate as much backspin ... anti is easy to play against.
You forgot about the modern generation of slick antis. This all does no more hold true!

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