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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 23:32 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Blade: Nittaku Shake Defense
FH: Nittaku Fastarc C-1 1.8mm
BH: Hellfire X OX
Def-attack wrote:
Here is a short clip I just did.
https://youtu.be/z-WvWKYMX5k


Thanks for the video. How would you summarize your conclusions?

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 23:45 
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Iron Pips
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Here is a short clip I just did.
https://youtu.be/z-WvWKYMX5k


Thanks for the video. How would you summarize your conclusions?
I wrote a little in the description on Youtube.

The surface of Vortex is very similar to DrN ABS2. It feels slightly like a very fine sand paper (not shiny). It behaves like ABS2 soft, but a lot slower (but that has only to do with the sponge). Spin reversal on blocks is ok, but the slowness and control is what makes it tricky for the opponent. A slow spinny loop may grip a little and blocks go high, but they still carry some spin if you block with a very light touch. But it is better to block like with ABS2 soft, more active and by meeting the ball with the bat. This way you put more preassure on your opponent. And you may also attack weak returns from your opponent. The sponge is so soft so the top sheet kind of holds the ball a little when attacking (again, like ABS2 soft). But for my kind of game this was not so good, I rely more on spinreversal on blocks to get a push that I can attack with FH.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2020, 00:12 
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Def-attack wrote:
TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Here is a short clip I just did.
https://youtu.be/z-WvWKYMX5k


Thanks for the video. How would you summarize your conclusions?
I wrote a little in the description on Youtube.

The surface of Vortex is very similar to DrN ABS2. It feels slightly like a very fine sand paper (not shiny). It behaves like ABS2 soft, but a lot slower (but that has only to do with the sponge). Spin reversal on blocks is ok, but the slowness and control is what makes it tricky for the opponent. A slow spinny loop may grip a little and blocks go high, but they still carry some spin if you block with a very light touch. But it is better to block like with ABS2 soft, more active and by meeting the ball with the bat. This way you put more preassure on your opponent. And you may also attack weak returns from your opponent. The sponge is so soft so the top sheet kind of holds the ball a little when attacking (again, like ABS2 soft). But for my kind of game this was not so good, I rely more on spinreversal on blocks to get a push that I can attack with FH.

Hi Def-attack and the forumers anti lovers. Are there any updates regarding the hot potato - Vortex anti? My order arrived
and sit in customs so I hopefully will be able to comment soon


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2020, 00:15 
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Blade: DMS Revolution
FH: RITC 802-1 OX
BH: Spinlab Vortex 0.5mm
Mine is still on the way.

redspot wrote:
Hi Def-attack and the forumers anti lovers. Are there any updates regarding the hot potato - Vortex anti? My order arrived
and sit in customs so I hopefully will be able to comment soon


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2020, 16:16 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Blade: Nittaku Shake Defense
FH: Nittaku Fastarc C-1 1.8mm
BH: Hellfire X OX
My Vortex arrived (red sponge 1.2 thickness) today, and I put it on a Re-Impact Turbo blade and tried it out tonight. My first impression is that it works as advertised. Passive blocks create pretty incredible spin reversal on loops. It was a bit tricky to get the timing right. I think you have to meet the ball above net height and hold the blade 90 degrees. If you try to get it right off the bounce, it goes into the bottom of the net, and if you open the blade, it'll go up too high. But I'm still sorting this out. From my limited efforts to use the Dr. N antis, this one is much easier to use and delivers more spin reversal.

It's definitely slow. For those who tried the Spinlord Gigant rubber, it's exactly like that, except with far more spin reversal. Attacking underspin is pretty easy if you go hard straight at it if it's above net height or do a shovel push if it's below net height. You have to put some energy into it, but if you do, you can generate decent speed. As with most anti attacks, it's nowhere near as dangerous as a pips attack because it's far easier to block back.

My concern with this rubber is that you have to be super aggressive against a quality opponent (unlike with pips) anytime you get anything other than a loop, because if you just put back a serve without being aggressive, you're kind of a sitting duck for the third ball attack coming at you. If you can block it, great, but a good looper will aim for wherever you aren't, whereas with pips it's easy for me to return serves with lots of awkward angles and funk to make the third ball attack difficult. You can push back underspin serves with a bit of a sideswipe, but your opponent is getting a no-spin ball that's easy to lay into. So I think with underspin serves, you really need to hit. But, look, it's my first day with this thing, so what do I know....

I do wonder, however, what I could possibly do against a long no spin or long light underspin serve to prevent a kill on the next shot.

Also, more generally, I wonder how this rubber will do against a no-spin player.

But I'll have a chance to play around with it more tomorrow.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2020, 23:25 
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Blade: DMS Revolution
FH: RITC 802-1 OX
BH: Spinlab Vortex 0.5mm
Good to hear someone in the u.s. received their order!

Also good to hear the spin reversal is strong as advertised.

For serve return I would suggest a strong aggressive receive as you said, especially against half long serves. Mixed together with drop shots that would be challenging for the opponent.

Not sure what to do with long fast dead serves.

I think the idea vs non-loops with such a slow frictionless anti is that you can put the ball back very short and safe so the only thing your opponent can do is push or flip weakly.

Let us know how day 2 goes! And if you have video capability that would be awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 03:17 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Blade: Nittaku Shake Defense
FH: Nittaku Fastarc C-1 1.8mm
BH: Hellfire X OX
hardbatpower wrote:
Good to hear someone in the u.s. received their order!

Yes, an order that I placed in early December and that wasn't shipped out until December 24th. I'm willing to cut them some slack, though, because they're not one of the established brands, and they're just in the process of setting up shop.

hardbatpower wrote:
Also good to hear the spin reversal is strong as advertised.

I understand, from the German pips forum, that the spin reversal is very blade dependent. I think it's also contact-dependent. I found that if you hold your blade still on contact, the spin reversal is significantly higher than if you push a bit upwards (like some players used to other frictionless antis might be inclined to do), because the upward push winds up creating a bit of friction, which decreases reversal (if you try to chop-block instead of passive blocking, that decreases reversal even more). This is a video from one of the guys in the German forum who DIDN'T find the Vortex to have great spin reversal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J67Z9Jlnxm8 When you look at it more carefully, however, you see that most of the times he didn't get great spin reversal, he was pushing very slightly up on contact, whereas when he held his bat absolutely still, the reversal was higher. At least that's my working theory based on my own experience, though it also could be that the rubber just didn't pair well with his blade.

hardbatpower wrote:
I think the idea vs non-loops with such a slow frictionless anti is that you can put the ball back very short and safe so the only thing your opponent can do is push or flip weakly.

I'm more worried about using this against players who are low-spin hitters, whether with inverted or with something like short pips. It's hard to put the ball back short and safe against a long, fast, flat hit.

hardbatpower wrote:
Let us know how day 2 goes! And if you have video capability that would be awesome.

Video probably won't happen, but I'll try to report back. Yesterday I practiced against a guy who's a 2200+ looper, which is the situation this kind of rubber is made for. I'm hoping today to get a few hits in against some weaker players who play with less spin and who just try to smack the ball to see what I can do to cope.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 03:58 
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Blade: Stiga 2000 ALL '76
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My Vortex (1.2mm red sponge) finally arrived yesterday as well and I already glued it on. I hope I'll be able to test it a little bit tomorrow. I'll report back here. I will test it in comparison to Dr. Neubauer ABS2 2.3mm which I normally play.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 04:26 
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Blade: DMS Revolution
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BH: Spinlab Vortex 0.5mm
Awesome Matt! Whew thank goodness.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 19:11 
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Iron Pips
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
My concern with this rubber is that you have to be super aggressive against a quality opponent (unlike with pips) anytime you get anything other than a loop, because if you just put back a serve without being aggressive, you're kind of a sitting duck for the third ball attack coming at you. If you can block it, great, but a good looper will aim for wherever you aren't, whereas with pips it's easy for me to return serves with lots of awkward angles and funk to make the third ball attack difficult. You can push back underspin serves with a bit of a sideswipe, but your opponent is getting a no-spin ball that's easy to lay into. So I think with underspin serves, you really need to hit. But, look, it's my first day with this thing, so what do I know....

I do wonder, however, what I could possibly do against a long no spin or long light underspin serve to prevent a kill on the next shot.


Here are two ways to handle back spin with Vortex. Then you also have the sidesweep and you can just touch the ball gently and guide it over the then short and low, that gives a tricky slightly top spinned ball for the opponent:

https://youtu.be/z-WvWKYMX5k?t=513

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2020, 01:40 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Blade: Nittaku Shake Defense
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BH: Hellfire X OX
Thanks the video is helpful. I did have a chance to use the Vortex against a few non-loopers last night, and I did fine, mostly attacking any long underspin shots.

I'm having a different issue, though, which is that with pips, when someone loops to my forehand, I can do a chicken-wing block and even graze a bit sideways to take the pace off the ball and add some sidespin. With the Vortex, though, I missed 90% of the loops aimed at my forehand (unless they were slow loops), because that same chicken-wing block would wind up grazing the ball just a bit, and the result would be that it would dive down into my side of the table. If anyone has thoughts on this, let me know. Will be traveling for a few weeks, so probably won't get much of a chance to try the Vortex out again until a bit later.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX


Last edited by TraditionalTradesman on 30 Jan 2020, 02:36, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2020, 01:54 
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By chicken wing I assume you mean the bat is pointed tip down and on your FH side?


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2020, 02:35 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Blade: Nittaku Shake Defense
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hardbatpower wrote:
By chicken wing I assume you mean the bat is pointed tip down and on your FH side?


Yes, that's right. In the promotional video on Spinlab's Facebook page, https://www.facebook.com/SpinLabItalia/ ... 748406860/, all the loops are aimed at the guy's backhand, so it doesn't help in figuring out what to do about loops aimed at the forehand. In principle, there's no reason the chicken-wing shot shouldn't work, but in practice, what winds up happening is that you're rushing to cover the forehand and moving your arm rapidly in that direction, which results in grazing the ball just a bit. This is why against slower loops to my forehand, I didn't have this issue. It may be just a matter of adjusting my technique somehow. This may also be something players who've used other frictionless antis can weigh in on, because I'm assuming that they've had to deal with a similar issue.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2020, 03:23 
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You can try to keep the bat handle horizontal (I e. Not tip down). This is closer to how Amir does it. He will occasionally end up with tip down if it's to the extreme FH side.

May have to modify your grip a little to me more BH centric. Also it matters which way your feet are pointing.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2020, 03:42 
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@TraditionalTradesman: If you want to block a ball into your forehand side with the anti you need to step over with your body as well and support your backhand with your body. When blocking with frictionless anti it is very important to support your block with your body. You can practice this and it's easy to do on slower loops but on real fast loops it's obviously very difficult and p[robably better to block with forehand side.

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