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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 26 May 2011, 17:22 
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That is what I suggested in another post, celluloid is being replaced by better materials, not banned. Maybe there is a language barrier with the ITTF but I found the statement that celluloid being banned by all the governments of the world interesting. That is what raised my curiosity. (and still does)


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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 26 May 2011, 18:34 
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haggisv wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
Here's Adham speaking about the world celluloid ban and also a demonstration of the new balls which appear to have different bounce characteristics.

http://sports.cntv.cn/20110513/110809.shtml

I can't see the video on this page...does it still work for you?


Didn't work for me in firefox either, worked just fine in IE.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 27 May 2011, 06:23 
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The whole purpose of the big ball was supposedly to slow down the game, now Sharara is on the record gleefully proclaiming the new ball is faster than the old ball. Since the dynamics of the ball are changing it would only be fair to revisit the aspect ratio, pip density, maximum pip height and minimum friction rules in light of the new ball specs, but I'll betcha they don't and pips out players get the shaft again.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 27 May 2011, 13:19 
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Tassie52 wrote:
roundrobin wrote:
hookshot wrote:
It will be interesting to see the effect in a game if the ball bounces higher. Advantage for loopers? :)

That is some serious extra bounce... Looks like VOC-charged ball to me! :o

This ball will make the game a lot faster. Bye-bye LP blocking at the table as the ball will ricochet off the paddle before we can control it... Great for fast sp and mp blocking, though.

My prediction is that the new balls will also cause lots of fires: the LP and anti community will see the extra bounce as discriminating against their style of play, which will then lead to claims that the introduction of the new ball had nothing to do with the problems of celluloid, but was in fact a plot by Schoeler and the ITTF to kill LPs.

I forgot to add: I also predict an increase in conspiracy theories masquerading as "the real reason" behind the change.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 27 May 2011, 18:13 
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When you can't trust what people say, you apply logic to try to discern the real reason.

The ITTF have imo proven themselves untrustworthy with comments and excuses made in the past for decisions they have made. It reminds of the yes minister series, not what is true, but what is most plausible and cannot be proven a lie given as the reason to justify the unjustifiable.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 27 May 2011, 18:29 
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Dunno if the video was posted previously but here's how celluloid balls are made :



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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 27 May 2011, 21:47 
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After 100+ years there's not suddenly some urgent need to change the way the ball is made. The claim of a worldwide ban on celluloid appears to be a fabrication. This misguided group just can't seem to keep their hands off the game.

Nice video. Didn't realize there was so much manual labor involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 28 May 2011, 00:05 
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Great vid Ma'man. Thanks for posting it. No surprise there'd be a fair amount of manual labour when they are made in an China, but Japan too? Maybe some of the things just aren't worth mechanising. I love the way the class of ball is chosen by where it rolls to LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011, 11:48 
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Just catching up with this and watched the video. There is definitely a significant difference in the bounce. The new balls definitely seem to be far more lively. I wonder if low throw rubbers will be popular, considering that medium or high throw rubbers could really have a significantly high bounce that would be easier to counter or block. As far as pips play goes, it could be a problem, as balls that are chopped will bounce higher. But, if the loops are bouncing more, they will tend to go higher and longer, so playing further back might be a way to offset the change a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011, 15:25 
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Fascinating video! Thanks for posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011, 16:01 
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Great video indeed! Perhaps this should can be copied into another thread, so that more members will see and enjoy it?

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2011, 20:06 
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haggisv wrote:
Great video indeed! Perhaps this should can be copied into another thread, so that more members will see and enjoy it?

yes great idea, I remember posting a video once of yinhee making table tennis rubber, so we may be able to add ball makeing, rubber production and blade makeing in one post (I know the ball makeing will change but still)

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 09:18 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
Did a little searching myself and while any actual articles on a ban on cellulose are not apparent, I did find some chatter on car paint forums back in 2006 and 2007 talking about it (in the UK I think). Seems cellulose was banned in paint after 2008, cellulose having been stopped in manufacture around 2006 (not sure if this is UK only). Here are the links to the discussions I found so far:

http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... read=12592

http://www.driftworks.com/forum/technic ... paint.html


Interestingly, it wasn't the cellulose that was the problem. After all, about 30% of all plant matter is cellulose and 90% of cotton is cellulose. The problem was that cellulose based paints used high amounts of VOCs. Kind of ironic ain't it that VOCs show up this way.

My understanding is that celluloid is a solid solution of camphor and cellulose nitrate. Camphor is solid at room temperature though it will vaporize. So it is only mildly volatile. It is also used in things like Vicks Vap-O-Rub. It doesn't seem too hazardous to me.

I hope to learn more on the manufacture of celluloid. But the more I dig up the more this seems to be an obsolete material more than a material that anybody cares about banning. The reasons for the ban of cellulose paint seem quite separate from anything that would pertain to celluloid.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 09:28 
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So what do you think is the real motivation for the ban... are they concerned the raw material will no longer be available? There must be a good reason for the ITTF risking another backlash from table tennis fans worldwide...

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 09:55 
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haggisv wrote:
So what do you think is the real motivation for the ban... are they concerned the raw material will no longer be available? There must be a good reason for the ITTF risking another backlash from table tennis fans worldwide...


I do not know. I'd think table tennis manufacturers would be concerned enough on there own if the material was likely to become obsolete. They wouldn't need prompting from the ITTF. After all, it is their business. Do we think Butterfly is going to sit by and let table tennis suffer because there are no ping-pong balls? Seems unlikely to me.

Here are a few guesses at possibilities.

1) They have simply been misinformed and are acting on poor information - confusing cellulose with celluloid or something similarly careless.
2) They are concerned about obsolescence because celluloid is a niche material, and don't trust the manufacturers to deal with it appropriately.
3) They have an itch to improve the old ball - which is certainly imperfect - and don't mind fibbing or exaggerating a bit to help grease the skids for their pet project. This is my best guess. When you really believe in a "cause", it becomes easier to exaggerate or spin the truth.

And, it could easily be a combination of those three factors and/or some other considerations.

Of course, maybe there really is a ban but because celluloid is such a niche material it is hard to find the info. And maybe manufacturers really are clueless enough to let a celluloid ban negatively impact the availability of table tennis balls. That just seems unlikely to me is all.

Also, I don't think the ITTF cares all that much about possible backlashes from amateur table tennis players. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear them say something like, "If your national organizations want to use celluloid, that's fine by us."

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