OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 05 Aug 2020, 06:15


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 29 May 2011, 01:30 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5592
Location: USA
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 178 times
Blade: Juic Hinoki One Ply
FH: Tibhar 5Q
BH: Scandal
Sure, they say, start your own league, you can use whatever equipment you want, make your own rules, do whatever you want. We only care about ITTF players.

But, if an ITTF player plays in your tourney, we can ban him from ITTF tourneys. Even if it is liha or hardbat. This I call unfair and unjust. If a non ITTF league had a big tourney and Ma Lin happened to be in town, and was invited to play, he would have to ask for permission from the ITTF. We all saw the results of the world championships of ping pong. This has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with protectionism and money. The money? TV rights. I "think" the ITTF gets about $30,000 to $50,000 for TV rights. The reason given, to protect the ITTF from any association with gambling. I fail to see the logic involved here. Maybe gambling is the real reason. If it is, I do not understand it. If it is not the real reason, then I would feel these rules unfair and should be exposed.

There is a big tourney in Canada coming up. There will be many ITTF players there. Did the ITTF players have to ask to play in that? I don't think it is an ITTF event like the pro tour. If they did not have to ask for permission, what is the difference between that tourney and the world hardbat championship tourney?

I choose to play by the ITTF rules. I may not agree with how they were made but I will go by the rules as they stand. At the same time, I see no problem asking questions about the rules for discussion, not arguement. The only people that has a chance of changing the way things are done is the ITTF players themselves.


Top
 Profile  
 


PostPosted: 29 May 2011, 01:32 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
We have discussed this stuff ad-nauseum in the past on the forum and it hasn't gotten us far, if anywhere. It kind of just goes around in circles.

Perhaps true, but the debate is fun. We know influential TT people read the site, but realistically I don't think it gets fixed until Schoeler is out of the picture.

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 May 2011, 01:47 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
Great post Hookshot!

Over time the ITTF has given us enough material for a detailed case study in the use of misdirection, smokescreens and red herrings.

- We need to change the ball because all nations of the world are banning celluloid

- Banning players over 21 from switching countries is not aimed at China

- We need to ban 1.3 aspect ratio LPs because they drive children from the game

- Limiting China to two entries in the Olympics is not designed as a move to curb China's dominance

- We need to ban low friction LPs because they drive children from the game

- VOC-free tuners are poison

- We need to restrict players from participating in the events of rival organizations because non-ITTF events *might* be tied in with illegal gambling

That's just off the top of my head. I could probably think of a dozen more.

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 May 2011, 03:28 
Offline
Kim Is My Shadow
Kim Is My Shadow
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2008, 09:04
Posts: 2251
Has thanked: 232 times
Been thanked: 325 times
Blade: ?
FH: ?
BH: ?
mynamenotbob wrote:
RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
We have discussed this stuff ad-nauseum in the past on the forum and it hasn't gotten us far, if anywhere. It kind of just goes around in circles.

Perhaps true, but the debate is fun. We know influential TT people read the site, but realistically I don't think it gets fixed until Schoeler is out of the picture.

Perhaps a fresh perspective would be to hear directly from a top player on these issues and how they feel about the things we talk about. Mmm, any top world ranked current ITTF players members of this forum in a position to represent the players views and to give as insight in to their thinking :?:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 May 2011, 03:36 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
Debater wrote:
Perhaps a fresh perspective would be to hear directly from a top player on these issues and how they feel about the things we talk about. Mmm, any top world ranked current ITTF players members of this forum in a position to represent the players views and to give as insight in to their thinking

Good idea. One active OOAK forum member who comes to mind is William Henzell, who is a member of the ITTF Athletes Commission.

Here are his stated goals as a member of the commission:

"My hope is to restore player trust in the decision making of the ITTF. The players have had to live through so many rule changes over the past 10 years and unfortunately for us, a lot of these changes have been difficult to understand and impossible to enforce. Instead of new machines to test whether rubber is 3.99mm or 4.00mm thick, we need to put all our effort into making table tennis as attractive as possible to spectators, sponsors and our players. I will work hard to make sure the ITTF listens to the experience and knowledge the players have to offer."

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 08:23 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5592
Location: USA
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 178 times
Blade: Juic Hinoki One Ply
FH: Tibhar 5Q
BH: Scandal
I will ask the question again;

There is a big tourney in Canada coming up. There will be many ITTF players there. Did the ITTF players have to ask to play in that? I don't think it is an ITTF event like the pro tour. If they did not have to ask for permission, what is the difference between that tourney and the world hardbat championship tourney?


International Table Tennis
All-Star Challenge 2011, Total Prize of $16,300

● Best Players to play in Canada Ever!
● World #23, #39, #44, #74, #89, #145*
● China 'Dark Horse' player from Guangdon Provincial Team
● Canada's Largest & Best TT Facility
● June 24-26, 2011 (Week Before US Open)
● TT Canada Sanctioned - 3 Star Event

Date: Friday - Sunday June 24-26, 2011


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 08:59 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 19:16
Posts: 1400
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 64 times
hookshot wrote:
I will ask the question again;

There is a big tourney in Canada coming up. There will be many ITTF players there. Did the ITTF players have to ask to play in that? I don't think it is an ITTF event like the pro tour. If they did not have to ask for permission, what is the difference between that tourney and the world hardbat championship tourney?


International Table Tennis
All-Star Challenge 2011, Total Prize of $16,300

● Best Players to play in Canada Ever!
● World #23, #39, #44, #74, #89, #145*
● China 'Dark Horse' player from Guangdon Provincial Team
● Canada's Largest & Best TT Facility
● June 24-26, 2011 (Week Before US Open)
● TT Canada Sanctioned - 3 Star Event

Date: Friday - Sunday June 24-26, 2011


I am pretty sure none of these players had to ask ITTF for permission for this event.
The World Championship of Ping Pong and other big hardbat tourneys are viewed as a threat by ITTF to divide their sport, so they pay special attention to who are attending...which is understandable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 15:38 
Offline
Count Darkula
Count Darkula
User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 15:07
Posts: 17501
Location: Dark side of Australia!!
Has thanked: 422 times
Been thanked: 290 times
Blade: Bty Gergely T5000
FH: TSP Regalis Blue Max
BH: Tibhar Grass Dtecs
Does TT Canada follow the ITTF rules though? If so, this may mean the ITTF automatically gives "permission" for players to play in it by default.

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! :twisted: Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 16:04 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
The Canadian Association sanctioning the event is an ITTF member, not to mention Adham's home association. The Bud Lite Classic, WCPP, and Ty Hoff's sandpaper group that was threatened are all outside organizations.

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 16:09 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5592
Location: USA
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 178 times
Blade: Juic Hinoki One Ply
FH: Tibhar 5Q
BH: Scandal
The reason given had nothing to do with a "threat to the sport". Although I believe that is the real reason.

This is the reason given;

Sharara's comment was: The Board of Directors wisely passed new regulations giving to the the national associations and to the ITTF the power to withhold permission to players to participate in non-ITTF events. This is necessary in order to ensure that the ITTF and its member associations are not caught unaware condoning the participation of players in events with illegal betting, or any other illegal activity for that matter.

So, what makes an ITTF event? Any event that uses ITTF rules? Is the Canadian tourney an ITTF event? Is the U.S. open an ITTF event? Why does the ITTF think an ITTF event is free of "illegal" betting? I "BET" they don't know. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 17:43 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
Anyone who refers to their own decisions as "wise" is trying to sell somebody a bill of goods. :^)

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011, 23:34 
Offline
Stir Crazy

Joined: 04 Oct 2010, 16:19
Posts: 928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 17 times
I've been doing my best to ignore this thread, but it seems it's not yet dead. So, knowing before I even begin that most on this thread won't agree with me, let me offer a couple of observations:
Debater wrote:
Breaking them is easy but who decides what's just and not? You, me or someone else? You tread a dangerous path if you advocate breaking rules.

Debater begins with the most telling point of all: who decides what's just? Near my home is a stretch of road with a 60kph speed limit. I think it's stupid because it's "perfectly safe" for me to travel on it at 80kph. Do I have the right to travel on that stretch of road at the speed that I choose or am I bound by the law? If I get booked for speeding, do I complain it's unjust? Or do I accept that fact that I am not the law maker nor am I the law enforcer. What I am required to be is a law abiding citizen.

What I think about the law is irrelevant - it's the law.

Debater wrote:
I think you have two choices.

1. You work within your league, your club, your association and try and change things within - and that is possible. Our league has voted in local rules when it was thought stupid or in appropriate to apply rules advocated by the ITTF and fed down through the ETTA. It is your leagues right to do that if they want.
2. You start your own club or league which isn't affiliated to your national association and is run by your club or your friends by your rules. But that takes a lot of effort, organisation and hard work. Sometimes it's easier to complain than to actually do something.

We actually have many more than two choices. One choice is to do nothing other than find someone to blame. One choice is to start a lobby group that goes directly to the ITTF. One choice is to listen to people who are not complaining and find out why they are not complaining. One choice is to find concrete evidence of a. corruption, b. high level cheating. And there are lots of other possibilities as well.

I think it's quite obvious that some of those choices are harder than others. Sometimes it seems that the easiest option is the one that is taken most often. How does that change anything?

Debater wrote:
I think in my experience people on this forum are also the vocal exception. In my league the majority of players were either glad or couldn't care less about the FLP ban. There was some grumbling when the 11 up rule came in and some stopped playing altogether but the majoirty now prefer it. A lot of the top players used to speed glue or tune but they now accept you can't do that and have adapted to the newer style rubbers or continue to use the older ones but without speedglue. Sure not everyone has the luxury to just adapt to another type of rubber but a lot can and do - both pips and inverted players.

Where I play I mix with about 30 others on a reasonably regular basis. In spending 12 months with them I have not heard a single player complain about flp ban, 40mm ball change, 11 point games, speed glue ban, or any of the other issues. Not one. Not once.

Debater wrote:
I thnk what it boils down to and without wanting to be offensive to anyone is either work to change it, adapt or stop playing in national association affiliated leagues. Antipip, you play golf. Would you enter a PGA competiton using illegal grooved wedges?

The crux of this matter is that we play a game with rules. There is an international body that creates and monitors those rules. That is the ITTF's job and it is the ITTF's responsibility. We can introduce our own rules in our local association. We can play to 31 points with a 38mm ball using treated pips. But we won't be playing table tennis, because table tennis is determined by its rules.

If people are happy to play something which is NOT table tennis, that's fine. But when I step up to the table I have every right to expect that the person at the other end is going to be playing with equipment which conforms to the laws. Fortunately, I am blessed that that is exactly what happens. We play table tennis.

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this"
Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2011, 01:08 
Offline
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
Do you feel lucky (young) punk?
User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2007, 12:57
Posts: 5592
Location: USA
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 178 times
Blade: Juic Hinoki One Ply
FH: Tibhar 5Q
BH: Scandal
Tassie52 wrote:
Debater begins with the most telling point of all: who decides what's just? Near my home is a stretch of road with a 60kph speed limit. I think it's stupid because it's "perfectly safe" for me to travel on it at 80kph. Do I have the right to travel on that stretch of road at the speed that I choose or am I bound by the law? If I get booked for speeding, do I complain it's unjust? Or do I accept that fact that I am not the law maker nor am I the law enforcer. What I am required to be is a law abiding citizen.

I think you miss the point. Yes, when you travel on that stretch of road, you must obay the law. But what the ITTF is saying is, you may not travel on any road where the speed limit is not set by us. If the town of Ping decides the limit should be 100 kph, ITTF players can not travel thier roads. It may reflect badly on the ITTF because of illegal gambling or other illegal activities.

Obviously, anyone traveling those roads knows the speed limit there before entering the road. There is no reason for the town of Ping to be punished for setting higher limits. Even the ITTF says they can. The real reason is the ITTF fears many people might like the town of Ping.

The ITTF would have more credibility if they just gave thier real reasons for things right from the start. I actually agree with most of the ITTF decisions. I just don't like the "smoke" that goes with some of them, like the reason for not letting ITTF players compete in non-ITTF events. Let them just say, We fear Ping Pong will devide the efforts of the ITTF and have a negitive effect on our sport.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2011, 02:51 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
Tassie52 wrote:
Where I play I mix with about 30 others on a reasonably regular basis. In spending 12 months with them I have not heard a single player complain about flp ban, 40mm ball change, 11 point games, speed glue ban, or any of the other issues. Not one. Not once.

A lot of players happily play in blissful ignorance of what the ITTF is doing. Other players quietly tune their rubbers or use reduced friction pips and don't talk about it. Either way, the topics you mentioned are more for people on a discussion forum full of people who love to play AND talk about the sport and who are quite a bit more informed than the average player.

Tassie52 wrote:
The crux of this matter is that we play a game with rules. There is an international body that creates and monitors those rules. That is the ITTF's job and it is the ITTF's responsibility. We can introduce our own rules in our local association. We can play to 31 points with a 38mm ball using treated pips. But we won't be playing table tennis, because table tennis is determined by its rules.

There are the official "Laws of Table Tennis" decided democratically by the national associations.

Then there are extra ITTF international regulations decided by the ITTF themselves that are meant to be used in international competition. Even ITTF President Adham Sharara says the international rules shouldn't be used in local leagues, local tournaments, etc.

But here's the disconnect: National Associations are in reality coerced by the ITTF into accepting the international rules not intended for them and which they have no way to enforce. And the German Association has unscrupulously used this fact to push through an international regulation specifically targeting non-international recreational players, whom the ITTF has repeatedly maintained they have no interest in.

Many people perceive this as unjust and an abuse of power. Even Debater, whom you so liberally quoted, does not see fit to include the international rules in a poll he's doing.

I would be a big ITTF supporter if they would stop lying to us, reverse their agenda to eliminate the defensive game and show a little consideration for the recreational player who plays for fun and doesn't get free equipment from sponsors.

Tassie52 wrote:
If people are happy to play something which is NOT table tennis, that's fine.

Some people would say the ITTF's self-admitted "radical" rule changes over the last decade have turned the game into something that is not table tennis. :lol:

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2011, 03:52 
Offline
Kim Is My Shadow
Kim Is My Shadow
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jun 2008, 09:04
Posts: 2251
Has thanked: 232 times
Been thanked: 325 times
Blade: ?
FH: ?
BH: ?
MNNB wrote:
Many people perceive this as unjust and an abuse of power. Even Debater, whom you so liberally quoted, does not see fit to include the international rules in a poll he's doing.

"Even..." :rofl: Apart from the first point I actually thought Tassie52 quoted me because he either disagreed with me or thought I didn't cover the points in depth enough! :)

And you are right I didn't include the international rules but that was because I wanted to break things down to see if and where there was/is/isn't a problem with the basic laws of table tennis being followed. And as it turns out even with the laws of table tennis there is a significant percentage of people who for one reason or another don't follow them. That's fuel to take back to my own association at a later date. A poll on the ITTF regulations should be done in the future.

Tassie52, out of interest, do the people you play with
1. know what the laws of table tennis are and
2. know what the ITTF regulation requirements are

Sometimes a law or regulation can only be seen to be unjust if it's first known about and understood and an action morally questionable if their is a conscious decision made as to the course of action to take. If you don't distinguish between these it is possible to draw a false or inaccurate conclusion. As haggisv has identified elsewhere is it morally unjust to do something if you don't realise your actions are imoral in the first place? Illegal may be, but imoral? Same outome but different reasons. Should we consider the reasons for an action or the outcome of those actions when considering or applying "morality"?

However, I do agree with something so-devo posted elsewhere. Regardless of what I think of the rules and regs, if I'm playing someone in a competion or league which applies either the laws of table tennis or the ITTF regs then I think I have a moral right to expect my opponent to play within the rules and regulations of the competitoin I've chosen to enter and which they too have chosen to enter. Or if my oponent is chosing to break those rules and regs for my opponent to atleast show or tell me they don't intend to play by those rules and regulations. What I do then is up to me. I think we need to consider the rights and morals of both ourselves and our opponents in a question like this and not just get hung up on how it impacts on ourselves.

I also agree with Hookshot on the other issue which has crept into this thread, that sometimes I feel the real reasons behind the ITTF's actions don't appear to match the ones actually given by the ITTF. But then, the ITTF doesn't seem to alone in this type of behaviour :?:

Mm, i didn't realise OOAK was also a philosopy forum! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group