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PostPosted: 08 Sep 2011, 23:43 
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Lorre wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
The sad fact is people don't want to watch a game played on a tiny 5x9 foot "field" located far from onlookers. It's simply not conducive as a spectator sport. Search "table tennis" on YouTube and the videos with the highest view totals certainly aren't ITTF events.


RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
TT is a participator sport first and a spectator sport a remote 2nd. As MNNB points out, this is an inherent fact about the game and no amount of change to the game can overcome that situation. The only way to "force" the game to be spectator-friendly is with the use of technology IMO. The trouble is the technology investment and innovation that would be required to take it to the level the ITTF seems to want, is more than anyone would be willing to risk. TT gets advertising and sponsorship, sure. But its peanuts compared to other corporate sponsorships derived by the major spectator sports. Without some massive shift in the world's interest in the game, I can't see TT jumping the hurdle or breaking through the ceiling that keeps it best being primarily a participator sport.

So pushing up the ball size won't achieve anything but to make the game worse for the players, pretty much like everything else the ITTF has done. :@


+100

I cannot understand why Sharara doesn't understand that, especially being a former player himself and even a defensive one. Anybody told this to adham on this forum?


+1 to MNNB and Reb. an I guess Sharara just refuses to admit it. It is just a participator sport, and that's that! It is made that way. It is intrinsic to table tennis! For people who KNOW what is going on most of the time, it doesn't matter if they use the 40mm or the 38mm or whatever. they know what's happening. THEN it's interesting to watch. non-players just won't get it...what will make it more popular??????? RULE CHANGES!!! that makes EVERYTHING popular. yeah, Star Wars only got big after it was digitally remastered, right?? hm......(gotta love sarcasm)

From a wikipedia page on the history of tennis: The comprehensive rules promulgated in 1924 by the International Lawn Tennis Federation, now known as the International Tennis Federation, have remained remarkably stable in the ensuing eighty years, the one major change being the addition of the tie-break system designed by James Van Alen. (ooh, they made a tie-break system! how insane...)

Later on in the paragraph:This reinstatement was credited by the efforts by the then ITF President Philippe Chatrier, ITF General Secretary David Gray and ITF Vice President Pablo Llorens, and support from IOC President Juan Antonio Samaranch. The success of the event was overwhelming and the IOC decided to reintroduce tennis as a full medal sport at Seoul in 1988. (hm....NOT rule changes, just correct marketing and support from the presidents....)

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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2011, 12:56 
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Fish wrote:
nathanso wrote:
Speaking of which, does anyone know the link to the online video that shows how Nittaku balls are (or perhaps were at one time) manufactured?



Thank you! That's the one.


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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2011, 04:33 
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tabesamis wrote:
Its going to be interesting to see how the new material and the seamlessness will effect the new ball. I wonder if the added size will really make it spin that much less because it's possible with the new material the ball could be slightly heavier or lighter.


Do not be so excited over the plastic balls.
According to Joachim Kuhn's recent statements, the plactics are going to be employed at the events alongside with celluloid indefinately long after 2012 Olympics.

Considering how much time the 40ball's technology were under development, I can assume it might well take manufacturers three or four years to perfect the plastic formulation so far as to make the balls durable enouth.


Last edited by igorponger on 13 Sep 2011, 05:58, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2011, 05:21 
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well if it's only testing then we may not even see a change. Don't get me wrong about the fun of trying a new ball. I wouldn't mind if things stayed the same. That would save me money on my robot and the balls to replace the old training balls.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2011, 18:25 
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I have passed on some of our concerns to Vladimir Samsonov, who is now the Chair of the ITTF Athletes commission and it seems the issue of the new balls was discussed:

ITTF wrote:
“At the meeting we touched on a wide range of topics from racket control, celluloid balls, world ranking system all the way through to the Olympic Games”, added Samsonov. “This meeting was the first step, it was an opportunity to present some of the players’ views and contribute directly to the discussions; it also provides an opportunity to report back to the players.”

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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2011, 17:02 
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Just got a response from Vladi!
Vladimir Samsonov wrote:
These are very good questions and players are also very concerned about the change .
We just received few samples , I will try to answer when we get some reports .

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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2011, 23:50 
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haggisv wrote:
Just got a response from Vladi!
Vladimir Samsonov wrote:
These are very good questions and players are also very concerned about the change .
We just received few samples , I will try to answer when we get some reports .


Personally, I'm less concerned about the new ball itself than I am about the question of whether we are being misinformed by the ITTF and whether or not the ITTF misinformed the voting members.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 00:54 
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wturber wrote:
Personally, I'm less concerned about the new ball itself than I am about the question of whether we are being misinformed by the ITTF and whether or not the ITTF misinformed the voting members.


I would be very surprised to learn, that the same guys, who misinformed us (if they really did it, of course), did not tell the voting members the same BS.


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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 02:05 
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igorponger wrote:
Do not be so excited over the plastic balls.
According to Joachim Kuhn's recent statements, the plactics are going to be employed at the events alongside with celluloid indefinately long after 2012 Olympics.

I don't trust Joachim Kuhn, the ITTF's ball guru. He's definitely pushing the dubious claims of an alleged ban of celluloid. According to him it's being banned because of health risks during the manufacturing process which is about 80 percent identical to the production of nitro-glycerine, and the ITTF is simply responding to current developments.

According to German women's coach Jörg Bitzigeio, the new ball is slower, flies differently (longer) and sounds broken. He says if you didn't know this was a new ball, you would think it's damaged and all the new balls have felt that way.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 03:02 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
igorponger wrote:
Do not be so excited over the plastic balls.
According to Joachim Kuhn's recent statements, the plactics are going to be employed at the events alongside with celluloid indefinately long after 2012 Olympics.

I don't trust Joachim Kuhn, the ITTF's ball guru. He's definitely pushing the dubious claims of an alleged ban of celluloid. According to him it's being banned because of health risks during the manufacturing process which is about 80 percent identical to the production of nitro-glycerine, and the ITTF is simply responding to current developments.

According to German women's coach Jörg Bitzigeio, the new ball is slower, flies differently (longer) and sounds broken. He says if you didn't know this was a new ball, you would think it's damaged and all the new balls have felt that way.


Is he the one pushing this bogus health stuff? Can you provide sources?

FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised to find that celluloid manufacturers never even deal with cellulose fibers. There are manufacturers on just about every continent making nitrocellulose flakes with different nitrogen content for making things from gunpowder and printing ink to nail polish. It would seem to me that a celluloid manufacturer would also just buy the nitrocellulose flakes - made to spec - and use that to create their celluloid. Why involve yourself in the making of the nitrocellulose when there are specialist like that all over the world. Also, the fact that there are specialist manufactures of nitrocellulose in Europe, the United States, India, China and other places makes the notion of a celluloid ban due to the health risks of cellulose fibers seem all the more absurd. Do we really think that world governments are likely to ban their beloved nitrocellulose based explosives and propellants? I don't think so.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 03:11 
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wturber wrote:
Is he the one pushing this bogus health stuff? Can you provide sources?

He's one of them, for sure (along with Adham). The source for this information is the German-language article that igorponger originally linked to titled "Once again a new ball: "It sounds broken."

http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/pano ... -kaputt-an

Kuhn's email is [email protected] if you want to contact him directly for more information.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 03:53 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
wturber wrote:
Is he the one pushing this bogus health stuff? Can you provide sources?

He's one of them, for sure (along with Adham). The source for this information is the German-language article that igorponger originally linked to titled "Once again a new ball: "It sounds broken."

http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/pano ... -kaputt-an

Kuhn's email is [email protected] if you want to contact him directly for more information.


WOW! What misinformation! He's saying that the making of celluloid is about 80% the same as the making of nitroglycerine!! How does he figure that? The processes are actually quite different.

Nitroglycerin manufacturing does not use cellulose - it uses glycerin.
The mixture that creates nitroglycerine is at risk of exploding if it exceeds 30 °C (86 °F).
Nitroglycerin manufacturing requires a very specific type of nitric acid that has few or no nitrous oxide compounds in it.
Nitroglycerin manufacturing is significantly more dangerous than nitrocellulose manufacturing and nitroglycerine is much less stable than the low nitrate nitrocellulose used to make celluloid.

The similarities are that both process uses nitric acid and sulfur - though in different ratios - and that the products of each process are a flammable or even explosive product. And actually, this is the similarity between making nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose in general. Celluloid is the plasticizing of low nitrate (less flammable and not really explosive) nitrocellulose by the addition of camphor and perhaps other plasticizing agents. At best, the processes are mildly related.

But even if he was correct, its a big "so what?" Low nitrate content nitrocellulose production (main component of celluloid) is not being banned. In fact it is made in Germany, the U.S. (the U.S. may be only the more dangerous high-nitrate form) India, China, and I'd bet on just about every other continent

He further claims an increase in actual diameter of .2mm while it seems like an increase of .35mm is pretty much assured because typical ball sizes are 39.65mm, not 39.8mm and the new balls could be as large as 40.5mm resulting in a size increase by as much as .85mm.

Once again, from what I can find out, the risk with celluloid is one of disinterest from manufacturers because it is a niche product. I can find no evidence of a ban or any health reasons that would suggest the need or desire for a ban.

Thanks for the link.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 04:13 
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Health and safety is just being used as a convenient excuse to hide the real reason which is to slow the game down for tv. As they did with the banning of VOC free boosters.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 04:31 
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Fish wrote:
Health and safety is just being used as a convenient excuse to hide the real reason which is to slow the game down for tv. As they did with the banning of VOC free boosters.


At this point, that seems more likely than not to be the case. There appears to be a pattern of associating celluloid with extremes that don't hold up under scrutiny. Sharara likened the celluloid fiber hazard to asbestos. Kuhn likened its manufacture to nitroglycerine. There is talk of a ban - that nobody can find evidence for. These associations don't hold up under even moderately close scrutiny. It's interesting that Kuhn argues safety from the nitroglycerine angle while Sharara has picked the fiber angle. Maybe nitroglycerine is safer because no cellulose fibers are used to make it? :^)

These are exaggerations at best and deliberate misinformation at worst.

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Last edited by wturber on 15 Sep 2011, 05:41, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2011, 05:25 
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