OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 05 Aug 2020, 05:03


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Would you like the "Loser Serves" rule put in place?
Yes 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
No 81%  81%  [ 21 ]
Unsure 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 26
Author Message
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 12:20 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
Lose the Point and Serve, a Possible Change to the Laws of Table Tennis?
By: Ian Marshall, ITTF Publications Editor

Egils Purinsh, the Referee at the Balkan Championships Photo By: Courtesy of Egils Purinsh

09/25/2011

The recent Baltic Championships staged in the Latvian town of Dobele on Saturday 17th and Sunday 18th September 2011 were conducted, as always, under the rules and regulations of the International Table Tennis Federation.

However, prior to the event, it was agreed by all parties to introduce a variation to the regulations pertaining to the service.

Instead of players having two services each and from 10-all alternating, the player who lost the previous point had the next service; an innovative move.

Contrary to Other Sports
The innovation is rather different to other sports where if you win the point you keep serving; volleyball is an example.

Proposed in Osaka
A new idea but not so new; the Latvian Table Tennis Federation submitted the proposal to the ITTF General Assembly in 2001 at the World Championships in Osaka.

It was a time when the scoring system as whole was undergoing change as was the size of the table tennis ball; perhaps it was not the most suitable time for such a proposal.

Submitted Again
in 2007 at the Liebherr World Championships in Zagreb, the proposals was submitted once again and more recently the matter was on the agenda at the General Assembly earlier this year in Rotterdam.

The conclusion from the ITTF Rules Committee and the Umpires and Referees Committee plus all concerned was quite simply to try out the idea; that is exactly the policy followed by Egils Purinsh, the Referee at the Baltic Championships.

Great Experience
An International Umpire since 1984 and International Referee since 1994; Eglish Purinsh has more often than not been the Latvian delegate at the ITTF General Assembly.

Continue Research
“As we were applying the rules for the first time many players where not ready; therefore many of them were against such changes”, explained Egils Purinsh. “However, I think that it is necessary to continue to study, discuss and explain to the players why such changes have been proposed.”

Cannot Win When Serving
Presumably a player must be two points clear to win a game; therefore under the system used at the Baltic Championships, a player cannot win the game on his or her service.

The player must be receiving service.

No Change, Stagnation
The aim is very genuine, the aim is to promote table tennis to make a better sport; a natural reaction is to oppose change but without change we will never move forward.

Did we once really play to 21 points and have five services each?

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 


PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 14:02 
Offline
Roar Talent
Roar Talent
User avatar

Joined: 03 Mar 2011, 17:59
Posts: 1478
Location: Philippines
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 37 times
Blade: Tiago Apolonia ZLC
FH: Rhyzer 50
BH: Donic Acuda Blue P3
Hmm quite interesting. The better player overall I think would win especially on the amateur level. Most of the time, the person with better serve win.
I would like to try this.

_________________
Setup 1 : Bty Tiago Apolonia FH : Rhyzer 50 Max BH : Acuda Blue P3
Setup 2 : Bty Harimoto ZLC FH : Rhyzer 50 Max BH : Acuda Blue P3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 14:21 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 09:30
Posts: 76
Has thanked: 239 times
Been thanked: 1 time
mynamenotbob wrote:
No Change, Stagnation
The aim is very genuine, the aim is to promote table tennis to make a better sport; a natural reaction is to oppose change but without change we will never move forward.
Did we once really play to 21 points and have five services each?

I really object to statements like this...why does our sport need to change regarding serves... Just because other changes were finally accepted, does not mean there is any value in this change.
I can't figure out the motivation behind this change, and it's not clearly identified...

_________________
Haggisv, when he's away and/or he forgets his password :oops: :oops: :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 15:50 
Offline
Count Darkula
Count Darkula
User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 15:07
Posts: 17501
Location: Dark side of Australia!!
Has thanked: 422 times
Been thanked: 290 times
Blade: Bty Gergely T5000
FH: TSP Regalis Blue Max
BH: Tibhar Grass Dtecs
angelav wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
No Change, Stagnation
The aim is very genuine, the aim is to promote table tennis to make a better sport; a natural reaction is to oppose change but without change we will never move forward.
Did we once really play to 21 points and have five services each?

I really object to statements like this...why does our sport need to change regarding serves... Just because other changes were finally accepted, does not mean there is any value in this change.
I can't figure out the motivation behind this change, and it's not clearly identified...


Seems like change for changes sake. How does this progress the game really?

Perhaps as Emm says it may favor the better player than the better server, but as it stands now the better server only gets 2 chances to impose their serve at a time. If they truly are the better server under such a regime, then they will win their serve still. This will mean they pass serve over to the other player, who if they are the better player, they will win the point and hand service back. So on this basis the game should then go serve for serve, point for point. If the better server happens to lose a point on his serve, he gets to serve again....so who really gets favoured? Seems the better server does??

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! :twisted: Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 16:03 
Offline
Stir Crazy

Joined: 04 Oct 2010, 16:19
Posts: 928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 17 times
mynamenotbob wrote:
Lose the Point and Serve, a Possible Change to the Laws of Table Tennis?
By: Ian Marshall, ITTF Publications Editor

Egils Purinsh, the Referee at the Balkan Championships Photo By: Courtesy of Egils Purinsh

09/25/2011

The recent Baltic Championships staged in the Latvian town of Dobele on Saturday 17th and Sunday 18th September 2011 were conducted, as always, under the rules and regulations of the International Table Tennis Federation.

However, prior to the event, it was agreed by all parties to introduce a variation to the regulations pertaining to the service.

Instead of players having two services each and from 10-all alternating, the player who lost the previous point had the next service; an innovative move...

So this comp. was played with the "loser serves" variation. What this article does not tell us was how it went. I can find results for the championship on the net but nothing which describes the play or how the service change affected play.

I'm not particularly interested in speculating about how "loser serves" might or might not change the game. I want someone who was there and who participated to tell me what it was like. Anyone? How about djordjestanic - he posted elsewhere that he was participating.

In the meantime I'm going to try to track down Ian Marshall "ITTF Publications Editor" and ask him why the hell he only posted half a story.

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this"
Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 16:36 
Offline
Count Darkula
Count Darkula
User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 15:07
Posts: 17501
Location: Dark side of Australia!!
Has thanked: 422 times
Been thanked: 290 times
Blade: Bty Gergely T5000
FH: TSP Regalis Blue Max
BH: Tibhar Grass Dtecs
Go Taz! :clap: (and welcome back! ;) )

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! :twisted: Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 19:03 
Offline
Debonair Deception
Debonair Deception
User avatar

Joined: 08 Sep 2011, 22:55
Posts: 1380
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Has thanked: 57 times
Been thanked: 37 times
Never thought of that !
Very very interesting !

Maybe I will hit with my friends with the serve rule and see how we enjoy it :D

_________________
GFoT |Blade : Timo Boll ALC • FH : DHS 3 Neo Provincial MAX • BH : Tenergy 64 MAX
Crossover to Takeover!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 20:08 
Offline
Stir Crazy

Joined: 04 Oct 2010, 16:19
Posts: 928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 17 times
Tassie52 wrote:
In the meantime I'm going to try to track down Ian Marshall "ITTF Publications Editor" and ask him why the hell he only posted half a story.

So, in less time than it takes to write a doctoral thesis, the results are in!

I had three replies: from the ITTF Media Manager, the writer of the story, and from the umpire who conducted the survey at the end of the tournament. Included was the questionnaire issued to players, coaches, umpires and spectators, plus the results of the surveys together with comments. Unfortunately, one is a .doc file and the other a .pdf, neither of which I can add as an attachment. (If anyone has any bright ideas about what I need to do, please let me know.)

The questionnaire reads
As the Baltic Table Tennis Championships, which took place on September 17-18, 2011, in Dobele, for the first time has been played in accordance with the experimental rule proposed by TTF of Latvia to study and discuss the change the service rule in terms of Law 2.13.3. “The next server of the rally is the player, who has lost the point in the previous rally” we would like ask you to express your assessment about the usefulness of such changes in the table tennis laws.

Respondents were able to record their age, country, "Relationship with table tennis" (player, etc.) and then asked, "Do you support such changes in table tennis laws?"

The results came in as follows:
Definitely yes: 0
Yes: 6
Maybe: 8
I don't know: 0
Probably no: 6
No: 5
Definitely no: 9

Which means 14 to some degree in favour, and 20 against including 9 strongly against. Interestingly, of the 6 yeses, 2 were umpires, 1 spectator, and 3 players.

Respondents were asked to comment on their choices. Comments ranged across a variety of things, many of which people in our forum are already highlighting. A number suggested that one tournament was not enough time to reach a conclusion.

If I can find out an appropriate format for attaching the raw data, you can see for yourselves. Suggestions please.

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this"
Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2011, 20:11 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11070
Location: USA
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 542 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Marder 1mm
BH: Dornenglanz ox
angelav wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
No Change, Stagnation
The aim is very genuine, the aim is to promote table tennis to make a better sport; a natural reaction is to oppose change but without change we will never move forward.
Did we once really play to 21 points and have five services each?

I really object to statements like this...why does our sport need to change regarding serves... Just because other changes were finally accepted, does not mean there is any value in this change.
I can't figure out the motivation behind this change, and it's not clearly identified...

RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
Seems like change for changes sake. How does this progress the game really?

I think it is change for the sake of change. The ITTF sells all these BS changes by using words like "development" and "bringing the sport forward." They operate under the philosophy that if you throw enough $#*+ against the wall, some of it will stick.

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011, 13:52 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2011, 05:18
Posts: 876
Location: The (Un)ited States
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 10 times
Blade: Appelgren Allplay
FH: Mark V GPS 2.0
BH: Reflectoid 2.0
mynamenotbob wrote:
angelav wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
No Change, Stagnation
The aim is very genuine, the aim is to promote table tennis to make a better sport; a natural reaction is to oppose change but without change we will never move forward.
Did we once really play to 21 points and have five services each?

I really object to statements like this...why does our sport need to change regarding serves... Just because other changes were finally accepted, does not mean there is any value in this change.
I can't figure out the motivation behind this change, and it's not clearly identified...

RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
Seems like change for changes sake. How does this progress the game really?

I think it is change for the sake of change. The ITTF sells all these BS changes by using words like "development" and "bringing the sport forward." They operate under the philosophy that if you throw enough $#*+ against the wall, some of it will stick.


I wouldn't WANT it to stick on my wall... :lol: But yes, I don't like the thought behind the "No change, stagnation" at all. Baseball hasn't changed much (just some minor rules, really; I'm
an umpire, so I do know fairly certainly) recently, and last time I heard, it was a multi-million dollar business (though I only get payed like 30$ a game :headbang: ). "No change, stagnation" sounds like a good way to lose jobs and get lots of divorces to me!

But this rule, in my opinion, COULD make rallying more important than it is now, and serving less so. But i don't know. I could ask some of the guys at my club to give it a go. sounds like an interesting proposition. I've considered the same thing myself, actually.

_________________
Happy Holidays 'round the world!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011, 22:06 
Offline
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 4028
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 1115 times
Been thanked: 568 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: DHS Hurricane 3-50 soft R
BH: TSP P1-R 1,5 B
Anyone considered yet that serving would be less important with this rule, but returning serve would be more important?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 10:37 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 32636
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 2027 times
Been thanked: 1331 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dr N Troublemaker OX
Tassie52 wrote:
Tassie52 wrote:
In the meantime I'm going to try to track down Ian Marshall "ITTF Publications Editor" and ask him why the hell he only posted half a story.

So, in less time than it takes to write a doctoral thesis, the results are in!

I had three replies: from the ITTF Media Manager, the writer of the story, and from the umpire who conducted the survey at the end of the tournament. Included was the questionnaire issued to players, coaches, umpires and spectators, plus the results of the surveys together with comments. Unfortunately, one is a .doc file and the other a .pdf, neither of which I can add as an attachment. (If anyone has any bright ideas about what I need to do, please let me know.)

The questionnaire reads
As the Baltic Table Tennis Championships, which took place on September 17-18, 2011, in Dobele, for the first time has been played in accordance with the experimental rule proposed by TTF of Latvia to study and discuss the change the service rule in terms of Law 2.13.3. “The next server of the rally is the player, who has lost the point in the previous rally” we would like ask you to express your assessment about the usefulness of such changes in the table tennis laws.

Respondents were able to record their age, country, "Relationship with table tennis" (player, etc.) and then asked, "Do you support such changes in table tennis laws?"

The results came in as follows:
Definitely yes: 0
Yes: 6
Maybe: 8
I don't know: 0
Probably no: 6
No: 5
Definitely no: 9

Which means 14 to some degree in favour, and 20 against including 9 strongly against. Interestingly, of the 6 yeses, 2 were umpires, 1 spectator, and 3 players.

Respondents were asked to comment on their choices. Comments ranged across a variety of things, many of which people in our forum are already highlighting. A number suggested that one tournament was not enough time to reach a conclusion.

If I can find out an appropriate format for attaching the raw data, you can see for yourselves. Suggestions please.

That's great information Tassie52, thanks a lot for getting the information.

You should now be able to attach .doc and .pdf files... please try and let me know if it does not work.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 19:47 
Offline
Stir Crazy

Joined: 04 Oct 2010, 16:19
Posts: 928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 17 times
These are the files with the "loser serves" questionnaire and results.

I summarised the results earlier. I would be interested to know how others interpret them.


Attachments:
questionary_BC_2011.pdf [215.23 KiB]
Downloaded 114 times
questionary_BC_2011_eng.doc [38.5 KiB]
Downloaded 113 times

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this"
Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011, 22:36 
Offline
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 4028
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 1115 times
Been thanked: 568 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: DHS Hurricane 3-50 soft R
BH: TSP P1-R 1,5 B
From what I've read, those who are against the rule, find it (1) useless, (2) much harder to play, (3) much harder to play against a lower leveled player or (4) making the game less tactical - probably due to the loss of the serve that prepares a third ball attack or a certain rally.

Those who are in favor, think that (1) it is easier to umpire, (2) it is more exciting for the crowd and (3) it makes all players more equal.

Oh yes, and there is at least one pip hater among the players...

I think it is again another rule to make the game more simple for the crowd, but makes the game less tactical and technical (it makes the service useless).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2011, 10:13 
Offline
Stir Crazy

Joined: 04 Oct 2010, 16:19
Posts: 928
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 17 times
Lorre wrote:
From what I've read, those who are against the rule, find it (1) useless, (2) much harder to play, (3) much harder to play against a lower leveled player or (4) making the game less tactical - probably due to the loss of the serve that prepares a third ball attack or a certain rally.

Those who are in favor, think that (1) it is easier to umpire, (2) it is more exciting for the crowd and (3) it makes all players more equal.

Oh yes, and there is at least one pip hater among the players...

I think it is again another rule to make the game more simple for the crowd, but makes the game less tactical and technical (it makes the service useless).

There are a couple of points here which seem to be either illogical or irrelevant.

Why comment on the presence of a "pip hater"? For a start, how do you know? Secondly, what difference does it make? Up to this point I'm not aware of pips players mounting any argument that this rule discriminates against them (or favours them, either). Even if there is a "pips hater" among the respondants, does that automatically invalidate their point of view? That would be as illogical as for a "pips hater" to suggest that a pips player's point of view was invalid.

The other thing which I completely fail to understand is the comment that "it makes the service useless". How? At what point is the effectiveness of the serve removed? If I'm winning points and not serving, then why is it an issue? If I win the game 11-0 and never get to serve, why should I complain? If I lose a point, then I get to serve with all of the advantages that go with it. I can still set up a third ball attack; I can still serve to my opponent's weakness; I can still call upon my arsenal of service techniques. Why is my serve suddenly useless?

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this"
Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group