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Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball
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Author:  j-bo [ 30 Jun 2013, 10:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

You cant see whats wrong with a seamed and seamless ball? Geez...

Oh well.. anyway..have fun at the US Open.

Author:  wturber [ 30 Jun 2013, 13:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

j-bo wrote:
You cant see whats wrong with a seamed and seamless ball? Geez...

Oh well.. anyway..have fun at the US Open.


So I see you have nothing further to add in support of your assertions. I understand. It is a tough position to try to support.

Author:  j-bo [ 01 Jul 2013, 23:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

wturber wrote:
j-bo wrote:
You cant see whats wrong with a seamed and seamless ball? Geez...

Oh well.. anyway..have fun at the US Open.


So I see you have nothing further to add in support of your assertions. I understand. It is a tough position to try to support.


A seamed ball that plays differently than a seamless ball is a huge deal to me. Although the ITTF may approve both for play, I'll bet a gazillion dollars that they will only play with the seamed or seamless ball at their pro events.

It may (doubtful, but who knows yet) take 2 different setups to match up the best with each ball. Who the heck want's to do that? Sure, if people only want to play with one ball or the other, that's fine for just fun. But if they want to play in sanctioned tournaments, each tourney may play with a different ball. Will ones style need to change for each ball type used too?

Since we are talking about the BALL, your analogies don't mean much in that context.

Tennis balls.....the variations in balls are made for different playing surfaces, mainly. Table tennis has a constant playing surface, thus, only 1 ball is needed.

Baseball field..has no bearing as tt has rules on minimal dimensions of playing area. The ball is the same for all of MLB.

Football surface.. TT playing surface rules are widely varied, except at World/Olympic, where it must be wood or rolled out synthetic surfaces. But heck, we're talking about the ball. The ball is the same for all of the NFL.

How about hockey? Puck is the same for all of the NHL.

Basketball? Same ball in the NBA.

Each sport must have some constants... and for most sports that include a ball, that is a constant.

As you said, tt has it's variations...that's the blade and rubber are the majors and slight deviations in table surfaces Why add another?

All this is ASSUMING that both balls will play significantly different enough to be a pain in the butt to deal with.

And with that..I'll just agree to disagree that having 2 balls is a problem.

Author:  Coxeroni [ 02 Jul 2013, 19:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Soccer: Different ball at every big event that is held, every ball has different flying characteristics and some were known to produce unexpected trajectories. Players (especially goalies) just accept it, because they have to.

Author:  ChrisBuer [ 03 Jul 2013, 03:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Coxeroni wrote:
Soccer: Different ball at every big event that is held, every ball has different flying characteristics and some were known to produce unexpected trajectories. Players (especially goalies) just accept it, because they have to.


True but Table Tennis is a much faster game and the faster a game is, the smallest of differences are amplified.

Author:  Spartan62 [ 30 Oct 2013, 22:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

A unseamed ball will play differently to a seamed ball... if we spin it.

With a spinning seamed ball the seam will soon be furthest from the axis of spin (the equator line) because the seamed area is denser. For an exaggerated view, think of a frizby. This is easly shown by drawing a red line around the ball on the seam and finger spinning it on the table. It doesn't matter how you start the axis of spin, the denser seam line quickly moves to the equator because of the centripetal force. It would be interesting to see how quckly this happens when playing with slow motion loop shots on such a ball.

How does this affect play? Well if there is topspin to backspin, backspin only or topspin only rally, then certainly we could envisage the seam gravitating to line of motion and staying there.

If we compare balls of the same weight and dimensions, a seamed ball has more wieght further from the axis, so there is more force keeping the spin axis in the same line. Without the seam, the axis of rotation is more likely to shift and thus cause less predicatable trajectories, presumably this is most easily noted with sidespin balls.

Tabletennis is and should be continued to be played with a seamed ball!

Waffle over for now!

Author:  breath007 [ 05 Nov 2013, 19:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

I definitely savored every little bit of it including all the comments and i have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you post.

Author:  THE GAMEr [ 05 Nov 2013, 22:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Spartan62 wrote:
A unseamed ball will play differently to a seamed ball... if we spin it.

With a spinning seamed ball the seam will soon be furthest from the axis of spin (the equator line) because the seamed area is denser. For an exaggerated view, think of a frizby. This is easly shown by drawing a red line around the ball on the seam and finger spinning it on the table. It doesn't matter how you start the axis of spin, the denser seam line quickly moves to the equator because of the centripetal force. It would be interesting to see how quckly this happens when playing with slow motion loop shots on such a ball.

How does this affect play? Well if there is topspin to backspin, backspin only or topspin only rally, then certainly we could envisage the seam gravitating to line of motion and staying there.

If we compare balls of the same weight and dimensions, a seamed ball has more wieght further from the axis, so there is more force keeping the spin axis in the same line. Without the seam, the axis of rotation is more likely to shift and thus cause less predicatable trajectories, presumably this is most easily noted with sidespin balls.

Tabletennis is and should be continued to be played with a seamed ball!

Waffle over for now!


This is probably the best argument I've seen AGAINST having both a seamed and unseamed ball in this thread.

Honestly, in my opinion, IF the two play differently, I would prefer that just one be used. If they don't play significantly differently, then I won't worry about it.

If they release both seamed and unseamed balls on the market, then I am sure each club/league will just consistently get one type.

I would have to play them to believe they are different one way or another, just because I'm SURE opinions will go both ways, unless there is a very significant different feel on each type.

Author:  haggisv [ 05 Nov 2013, 22:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Yep I agree with you completely THE GAMEr...having both is going to cause lots of confusions and frustration.

Author:  iskandar taib [ 25 Jun 2014, 14:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Not to mention playing surfaces in tennis... ;)

Just wondering how they make seamless balls, though... There's GOT to be some sort of seam if they make it out of two halves, even if the seam is invisible. Or if it's NOT made out of two halves there's got to be some sort of vent (closed off, of course) where the air went in when it was (vacuum?) molded.

Iskandar

Author:  iskandar taib [ 25 Jun 2014, 14:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Spartan62 wrote:
With a spinning seamed ball the seam will soon be furthest from the axis of spin (the equator line) because the seamed area is denser. For an exaggerated view, think of a frizby. This is easly shown by drawing a red line around the ball on the seam and finger spinning it on the table. It doesn't matter how you start the axis of spin, the denser seam line quickly moves to the equator because of the centripetal force. It would be interesting to see how quckly this happens when playing with slow motion loop shots on such a ball.


I'll have to try this myself (not entirely convinced this happens).

Iskandar

Author:  iskandar taib [ 27 Jun 2014, 02:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

Just tried it. Doesn't happen.

Iskandar

Author:  larrythoman [ 27 Jun 2014, 03:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

iskandar taib wrote:
Just wondering how they make seamless balls, though... There's GOT to be some sort of seam if they make it out of two halves, even if the seam is invisible. Or if it's NOT made out of two halves there's got to be some sort of vent (closed off, of course) where the air went in when it was (vacuum?) molded.

Iskander, as I understand it, the seamless balls are made by injecting the plastic into a round, hollow mold that is then shut to form a completely sealed off chamber. The mold is then spun at high rotational force to centrifugally spin the molten plastic against the mold surfaces until the molten plastic cools and becomes a solid.

Larry

Author:  iskandar taib [ 28 Jun 2014, 02:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

You still need to get air inside the ball, though. Would be interesting to see a video of this. It would be somewhat less labor-intensive than the old method, I suppose. There's quite a bit of hand-work involved in making the regular two piece ball.

Iskandar

Author:  HitHitHit [ 29 Jun 2014, 18:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Structural contrast of Polyball & seam ball

j-bo wrote:
wturber wrote:
j-bo wrote:
You cant see whats wrong with a seamed and seamless ball? Geez...

Oh well.. anyway..have fun at the US Open.


So I see you have nothing further to add in support of your assertions. I understand. It is a tough position to try to support.


A seamed ball that plays differently than a seamless ball is a huge deal to me. Although the ITTF may approve both for play, I'll bet a gazillion dollars that they will only play with the seamed or seamless ball at their pro events.

It may (doubtful, but who knows yet) take 2 different setups to match up the best with each ball. Who the heck want's to do that? Sure, if people only want to play with one ball or the other, that's fine for just fun. But if they want to play in sanctioned tournaments, each tourney may play with a different ball. Will ones style need to change for each ball type used too?

Since we are talking about the BALL, your analogies don't mean much in that context.

Tennis balls.....the variations in balls are made for different playing surfaces, mainly. Table tennis has a constant playing surface, thus, only 1 ball is needed.

Baseball field..has no bearing as tt has rules on minimal dimensions of playing area. The ball is the same for all of MLB.

Football surface.. TT playing surface rules are widely varied, except at World/Olympic, where it must be wood or rolled out synthetic surfaces. But heck, we're talking about the ball. The ball is the same for all of the NFL.

How about hockey? Puck is the same for all of the NHL.

Basketball? Same ball in the NBA.

Each sport must have some constants... and for most sports that include a ball, that is a constant.

As you said, tt has it's variations...that's the blade and rubber are the majors and slight deviations in table surfaces Why add another?

All this is ASSUMING that both balls will play significantly different enough to be a pain in the butt to deal with.

And with that..I'll just agree to disagree that having 2 balls is a problem.


Sorry, I do not see why there is so much concern. The other day, I saw some people playing with it and I didn't realise it was the new plastic ball (seamless) until they told me! Though, I would recommend the plastic balls with seam. Here is why:

The facts:
1) DHS are the official balls sponsor of the ITTF World Tour events 2014-2015, ITTF Pro Tour Grand Finals 2014-2015 (biggest total prize money), World Championships 2014, Men's World Cup 2014-2015, Women's World Cup 2014-2015, and 2016 Olympic Games.
2) Butterfly are the official balls sponsor of the World Championships 2015, and Junior World Championships 2014-2015.
3) Nittaku are the official balls sponsor of the 2015 World Team Cup (which is held bi-annually).
4) Currently, ITTF approved DHS, Butterfly, and Nittaku plastic balls are with seam.
5) Also currently, out of 16 approved ITTF plastic balls, only 3 are seamless. They are by Hanno, Palio and Xushaofa.
6) Remember it takes time and money to get the ITTF approval on table tennis goods (e.g. balls). So, for DHS, Butterfly and Nittaku to submit any seamless balls will take just that - time and money.

Putting everything together, I think it is fairly convincing plastic with seam is the way to go in the immediate future. Famous last words hey :) And if you are wondering, I have already ordered some DHS plastic balls.

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