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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 09:09 
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adham wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
adham wrote:
It is usually a small adjustment made to the player's requirement. Slightly harder sponge, or slightly softer sponge, a specific sponge that is 1.9 mm thick, or 1.95 mm thick, etc. Most of it is due to the players' "feel" and at that level it may make a small and slight difference but enough for the player to feel good. At lower levels it would be impossible to detect the differences.

Why don't they use their own skills instead of relying on specialized equipment? I remember hearing that argument somewhere.


My philosophy is always to improve your skills, but these top players feel they are at the maximum skill level they can achieve.


A lot of lower level players feel "they are at the maximum skill level". For whatever reason. E.g. they do not have enough time to practice. They have families, they have to work.

I do not think we can tell them: "Forget your banned equipment, just improve your skills", although theoretically it is possible in some cases.


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 12:31 
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My philosophy is always to improve your skills, but these top players feel they are at the maximum skill level they can achieve. [/quote]

A lot of lower level players feel "they are at the maximum skill level". For whatever reason. E.g. they do not have enough time to practice. They have families, they have to work.

I do not think we can tell them: "Forget your banned equipment, just improve your skills", although theoretically it is possible in some cases.[/quote]

You are missing the point. There are over 1,000 skills levels from low beginner to top professional. This is not the point. The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact. So for example if practicing one hour will improve your level by 1%, then changing your equipment may improve your level by 0.01%. I hope you get what I mean. Whereas at the top top level, practicing one hour may improve your level by 0.005% and modifying your equipment may improve your level by 0.01%. This difference could result in the difference between a win and a loss. So going back to the lower levels, if you run the 100 meters dash with any type of shoe, the result will be almost the same. But for the top runners in the world, one particular shoe may be preferred and give a 0.01 seconds advantage, which is enough to win a race, unless you are running against Usain Bolt then it will make no difference at all.

By the way Usain Bolt said that he played Ping Pong with his coach prior to the race to relax.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 12:36 
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adham wrote:
The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact.

If that's the case I don't understand why the so called "slippery long pips" were banned.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 13:08 
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adham wrote:
You are missing the point. There are over 1,000 skills levels from low beginner to top professional. This is not the point. The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact. So for example if practicing one hour will improve your level by 1%, then changing your equipment may improve your level by 0.01%. I hope you get what I mean. Whereas at the top top level, practicing one hour may improve your level by 0.005% and modifying your equipment may improve your level by 0.01%. This difference could result in the difference between a win and a loss. So going back to the lower levels, if you run the 100 meters dash with any type of shoe, the result will be almost the same. But for the top runners in the world, one particular shoe may be preferred and give a 0.01 seconds advantage, which is enough to win a race, unless you are running against Usain Bolt then it will make no difference at all.

By the way Usain Bolt said that he played Ping Pong with his coach prior to the race to relax.


Yes that makes perfect sense to me :wink:

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 14:33 
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adham wrote:
The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact.


The first point "at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance" is wrong as a general statement, whereas in some cases it is correct IMHO. E.g. the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver S 2.1 is not very big. But the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver L 1,3 is bigger. The difference between Sriver L 2,1 and any frictionless pimples is huge. I would say - in both directions.

The second point "practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact" is wrong as a general statement too. A little bit practice can significantly improve technique? I think we have to practice constantly just to maintain our level. If we want to improve, we have to practice even more.

As for situation of "frictionless" players, I know only those (with one exception), whose results have dramatically dropped for one single reason - ban of frictionless pimples, although they did practice with their new equipment.


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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 15:30 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact.


The first point "at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance" is wrong as a general statement, whereas in some cases it is correct IMHO. E.g. the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver S 2.1 is not very big. But the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver L 1,3 is bigger. The difference between Sriver L 2,1 and any frictionless pimples is huge. I would say - in both directions.

The second point "practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact" is wrong as a general statement too. A little bit practice can significantly improve technique? I think we have to practice constantly just to maintain our level. If we want to improve, we have to practice even more.

As for situation of "frictionless" players, I know only those (with one exception), whose results have dramatically dropped for one single reason - ban of frictionless pimples, although they did practice with their new equipment.


+1 !


This shows, if ever needed, that Adham doesn't know or care much about the "lower skill level". A good district player can be clueless against a pimple player if he's not used to play them. A newby will have hard times to improve if his first racket is too fast.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 18:34 
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Smartguy wrote:
The first point "at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance" is wrong as a general statement, whereas in some cases it is correct IMHO. E.g. the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver S 2.1 is not very big. But the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver L 1,3 is bigger. The difference between Sriver L 2,1 and any frictionless pimples is huge. I would say - in both directions.

The second point "practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact" is wrong as a general statement too. A little bit practice can significantly improve technique? I think we have to practice constantly just to maintain our level. If we want to improve, we have to practice even more.

As for situation of "frictionless" players, I know only those (with one exception), whose results have dramatically dropped for one single reason - ban of frictionless pimples, although they did practice with their new equipment.


And again you miss the point. Those two statements are not - as you treat them - "points" in their own right, but are made to set up the rest of Adham's argument. They are not meant be general statements. You know that very well and yet you choose to drag down the discussion by pretending Adham wrote them as almighty truths. Ehehe, I love it :)

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 19:32 
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the whole frictionless pimples discussion is a joke and adham knows it. the only reason was to try to elimate a type of playing style at the non-ittf level. everything else is a utter lie, no matter how much he chooses to engage in parsing words. what exactly happened with tt-master? to this day nobody knows! the rubbers were ittf approved and thus must have met the ittf requirements...what happened afterwards? is the ittf claiming that all tt-master rubbers after that stage have been tampered with and dont meet the requirements? or are there mere inconsistencies in the production? if so, how did the ittf check this, how many "irregular" rubbers were detected / how many irregular sheets are required to wipe the product off market? any official rules on this matter? how exactly does the ittf measure the friction? one machine somewhere no one else knows exact details about. all very shady and unprofessional because it lacks transparency. the same goes for the whole "speed glueing" issue. the tragic case of one alleged japanese kid who apparently sniffed banned glue on a regular level was the ittfs scapegoat for implementing the ban. no medical studies showing the longterm effect of approved speed glues, not even any evidence to do with the given case. again: very shady. the ittf would have a much easier time if they would stand up behind the real motives (ban a certain style of play/ reduce the speed) instead of hiding behind very lame and "creative" argumentations. another thing to consider: even if the ittf implements the rules, rules that are not supported within the community will always be undermined in one way or the other, maybe the ittf should drop the "ego-trip".

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 21:36 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
adham wrote:
The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact.

If that's the case I don't understand why the so called "slippery long pips" were banned.


Just the same way as the double-stringing was banned in Tennis. Personally I would allow long, short and sideways cut pimples. because technically speaking a good coach can teach players how to play against these types. In fact it's the user who would be at a disadvantage. But I do not have a vote, and my influence in equipment matters is rather limited. The majority felt that this type of rubber is not conducive to the development of the sport. Therefore the "majority" ruled it out according to the correct process. Do I like the decision? No. But as custodian of the ITTF I must respect it and implement it. It would behoove everyone to move on and accept that the so-called low-friction pimpled rubbers are not legal at ITTF events. Now let's move forward. Similarly, the majority at FINA (international swimming federation) ruled out the special swim-suits. Some think it's a good move and others think it is not. But once the rule is made, then it must be followed.

By the way, those that cannot live without the low-friction pimpled rubber can still use them. Just play in areas or structures that do not follow ITTF rules. Like I said many times, our rules are for ITTF events, and then the national associations usually adopt them for their national levels. But who stops you from enjoying yourself with any equipment uyou like in your local club, or even in your own neighborhood? I played soccer for years locally in a house-league and we did not follow the offside rule, nor did we follow the ban of passing back to the goalie. We did not like those rules and we played as we wished to enjoy the game.

My advice: get over the low-friction long pimples and move on, or keep on playing with it in your own area with others that feel like you.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 21:41 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact.


The first point "at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance" is wrong as a general statement, whereas in some cases it is correct IMHO. E.g. the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver S 2.1 is not very big. But the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver L 1,3 is bigger. The difference between Sriver L 2,1 and any frictionless pimples is huge. I would say - in both directions.

The second point "practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact" is wrong as a general statement too. A little bit practice can significantly improve technique? I think we have to practice constantly just to maintain our level. If we want to improve, we have to practice even more.

As for situation of "frictionless" players, I know only those (with one exception), whose results have dramatically dropped for one single reason - ban of frictionless pimples, although they did practice with their new equipment.


How could MY PHILOSOPHY be wrong or right? It is MINE, so I can have whatever philosophy I choose, it is neither wrong nor right, it is a way of thinking. You can agree or disagree, but you cannot say it is wrong or it is right. Haggisv agreed, you can disagree of course. Some will agree and some will disagree. But you cannot pass judgement on its validity, unless you are Plato, and then again ....
As for the examples I gave, if you look at the examples as an "illustration" then they are valid to make my point, if you wish to knit-pick, then of course you are right. But since knit-picking is your forte, then of course you are right.

I leave all of you with one more thought: No one can take your technique away from you, but a change of rule can take your equipment away from you.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 21:48 
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jolan wrote:
Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
The point is that at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance, whereas practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact.


The first point "at the lower skill level, the differences in equipment does not make a huge or any difference in "improving" the performance" is wrong as a general statement, whereas in some cases it is correct IMHO. E.g. the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver S 2.1 is not very big. But the difference between Sriver L 2,1 and Sriver L 1,3 is bigger. The difference between Sriver L 2,1 and any frictionless pimples is huge. I would say - in both directions.

The second point "practicing ( no matter how little) to improve technique has a huge impact" is wrong as a general statement too. A little bit practice can significantly improve technique? I think we have to practice constantly just to maintain our level. If we want to improve, we have to practice even more.

As for situation of "frictionless" players, I know only those (with one exception), whose results have dramatically dropped for one single reason - ban of frictionless pimples, although they did practice with their new equipment.


+1 !


This shows, if ever needed, that Adham doesn't know or care much about the "lower skill level". A good district player can be clueless against a pimple player if he's not used to play them. A newby will have hard times to improve if his first racket is too fast.


Thank you for proving my point, perhaps inadvertently! Yes, you are right. I newbie would not know how to play against gainst long pimples, because he is a newbie. So what is the solution? I would teach him how and then he would have no problems against such equipment. It is a matter of learning how to play them, this is done through practice, learning, coaching and improving your technique. And of course a newbie would have problems with a racket that is too fast, why? Because it will hamper his technique. So again, I believe that the right way to improve is through learning the basics, coaching, technique, practice and training regularly.
As for your comment that I don't care about lower skill levels, well, you must be a top ranked player then because I cared enough to answer your question.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 21:50 
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AA wrote:
the whole frictionless pimples discussion is a joke and adham knows it. the only reason was to try to elimate a type of playing style at the non-ittf level. everything else is a utter lie, no matter how much he chooses to engage in parsing words. what exactly happened with tt-master? to this day nobody knows! the rubbers were ittf approved and thus must have met the ittf requirements...what happened afterwards? is the ittf claiming that all tt-master rubbers after that stage have been tampered with and dont meet the requirements? or are there mere inconsistencies in the production? if so, how did the ittf check this, how many "irregular" rubbers were detected / how many irregular sheets are required to wipe the product off market? any official rules on this matter? how exactly does the ittf measure the friction? one machine somewhere no one else knows exact details about. all very shady and unprofessional because it lacks transparency. the same goes for the whole "speed glueing" issue. the tragic case of one alleged japanese kid who apparently sniffed banned glue on a regular level was the ittfs scapegoat for implementing the ban. no medical studies showing the longterm effect of approved speed glues, not even any evidence to do with the given case. again: very shady. the ittf would have a much easier time if they would stand up behind the real motives (ban a certain style of play/ reduce the speed) instead of hiding behind very lame and "creative" argumentations. another thing to consider: even if the ittf implements the rules, rules that are not supported within the community will always be undermined in one way or the other, maybe the ittf should drop the "ego-trip".


OK, we will let you know when we are off our ego trip and hopefully by then we will stop lying. In the meantime, I would advise that you research matters better and then pass judgement.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 22:08 
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adham wrote:

OK, we will let you know when we are off our ego trip and hopefully by then we will stop lying. In the meantime, I would advise that you research matters better and then pass judgement.



i am merely expressing what a large amount of the players are thinking. so either these players are too stupid to see the light or the ittf is not able to create transparancy to get rid of its (current) shady image. instead of passing sarcastic comments you easily could have clarified things, instead you chose not to, i wonder why. it is impossible to "research matters better" because of the ittfs intransparent policy. and please dont say that these issues were adressed elsewhere, the significant parts never were answered to anyones fulfillment.

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PostPosted: 19 Aug 2009, 22:22 
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I have said this before, but would like to say it again for everyone that may not have read it (this is not directed to anyone in particular):

Adham is an honoured member here, and we are very lucky he willing to participate in the discussions here. He has been most patient and generous to take time to answers our questions, and this is his own personal time, which he does not get paid for this.

He is not here to represent the ITTF, but to offer his own personal opinion and explanation of the ITTF rules and procedures. So lets keep things friendly, and make him feel appreciated, and make the most of the time he's willing to spend here, instead of nit-picking his words, or saying he does not care about players or TT.

I'm sure there are things we don't agree with (myself included), but lets keep the conversation friendly and constructive, which is to everyone's benefit.

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PostPosted: 20 Aug 2009, 05:24 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:

OK, we will let you know when we are off our ego trip and hopefully by then we will stop lying. In the meantime, I would advise that you research matters better and then pass judgement.



i am merely expressing what a large amount of the players are thinking. so either these players are too stupid to see the light or the ittf is not able to create transparancy to get rid of its (current) shady image. instead of passing sarcastic comments you easily could have clarified things, instead you chose not to, i wonder why. it is impossible to "research matters better" because of the ittfs intransparent policy. and please dont say that these issues were adressed elsewhere, the significant parts never were answered to anyones fulfillment.


I humbly apologize for the sarcasm, and I assume you are also apologizing for calling us liars. The fact is that I did answer all these questions, but obviously not to your satisfaction. If the answers I give are not the answers you want to hear, then you call me a liar. This is normally because you have a pre-determined idea and do not want to hear anything else. If you have any specific question that was not already answered it would be my pleasure to answer you, or to get an expert in the matter answer you.

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