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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 00:20 
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if this is the "right course" kindly tell me how the 25mN rule is enforced by ittf-referees currently..

since the ittf wants to be a professional organisation i strongly refuse to believe that rules are passed that cannot be enforced/monitored. i also still havent understood why the ittf saw any need to take action, as you never get tired of stressing that the ittf is only concerned with their competitions. so i am very sure that data was collected concerning the amount of players at ittf level that used frictionless pimples. if not, maybe it would have been wise to do so before taking action if you want to continue the claim that it had nothing to do with outside-ittf competitions?

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 04:22 
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AA wrote:
if this is the "right course" kindly tell me how the 25mN rule is enforced by ittf-referees currently..

since the ittf wants to be a professional organisation i strongly refuse to believe that rules are passed that cannot be enforced/monitored. i also still havent understood why the ittf saw any need to take action, as you never get tired of stressing that the ittf is only concerned with their competitions. so i am very sure that data was collected concerning the amount of players at ittf level that used frictionless pimples. if not, maybe it would have been wise to do so before taking action if you want to continue the claim that it had nothing to do with outside-ittf competitions?


I have answered these questions many many times. I realize you did not read all of this thread and the special thread prepared by Haggisv on the subject. Basically, in all walks of life, it is impossible to police every single person and every single action. We make rules that are seen as what is best for the sport and its majority by the national associations that pass these rules, then we try our best to implement them and enforce them. Not every car on the street follows the traffic rules, not every person tells the truth, many shoplifters are not caught, etc., etc., and you don't supervise your children 100% of the time. You hope that they are honest and well educated as not to cheat, this is the "honour system". Cheaters will always be cheaters.

The rules made that affected the long pimples low friction rubbers were made by the ITTF and are enforced by the ITTF at ITTF events. It's true that very few players use these type of rubbers, but the rule remains in effect to avoid having such rubbers at ITF events, because that is the wish of the majority of the national associations members of the ITTF.

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 05:24 
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adham wrote:
The rules made that affected the long pimples low friction rubbers were made by the ITTF and are enforced by the ITTF at ITTF events. It's true that very few players use these type of rubbers, but the rule remains in effect to avoid having such rubbers at ITF events, because that is the wish of the majority of the national associations members of the ITTF.

The associations wanted to ban treated pips. The implementation of the 25mN rule was a misdirection that resulted in many untreated rubbers being banned for no reason. England and Sweden recognized this move as the "wrong course."

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 05:47 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
adham wrote:
The rules made that affected the long pimples low friction rubbers were made by the ITTF and are enforced by the ITTF at ITTF events. It's true that very few players use these type of rubbers, but the rule remains in effect to avoid having such rubbers at ITF events, because that is the wish of the majority of the national associations members of the ITTF.

The associations wanted to ban treated pips. The implementation of the 25mN rule was a misdirection that resulted in many untreated rubbers being banned for no reason. England and Sweden recognized this move as the "wrong course."


Of course it is up to each national association to decide in their own territory what to do. The ITTF has no problem with that.

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 08:00 
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adham wrote:
Not every car on the street follows the traffic rules, not every person tells the truth, many shoplifters are not caught, etc., etc., and you don't supervise your children 100% of the time. You hope that they are honest and well educated as not to cheat, this is the "honour system". Cheaters will always be cheaters.



thats a very bad analogy. policemen are there to enforce traffic laws and they can enforce them. the difference to the ittf-rule is that not a single referee is able to control this rule even when the treated rubber is laughing at his face. sorry, take it as a fact that this idea was not thought through.

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 12:28 
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AA wrote:
...not a single referee is able to control this rule even when the treated rubber is laughing at his face. sorry, take it as a fact that this idea was not thought through.


Theoretically, we can not rule out other possibilities.

Some of the members of Board of Directors, who voted for the "minimum friction level" might have been sure, for whatever reason, that referees are able to control this rule.

At the same time, other members of Board of Directors, who voted for the "minimum friction level" might have been very well aware of the fact, that control at tournaments was practically impossible.


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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 15:47 
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adham wrote:
I have answered these questions many many times. I realize you did not read all of this thread and the special thread prepared by Haggisv on the subject. Basically, in all walks of life, it is impossible to police every single person and every single action. We make rules that are seen as what is best for the sport and its majority by the national associations that pass these rules, then we try our best to implement them and enforce them. Not every car on the street follows the traffic rules, not every person tells the truth, many shoplifters are not caught, etc., etc., and you don't supervise your children 100% of the time. You hope that they are honest and well educated as not to cheat, this is the "honour system". Cheaters will always be cheaters.

Mr President, as always, you carefully avoid to understand the main concern but here, your analogy is reaching new heights of cynicism.

1/ "Basically, in all walks of life, it is impossible to police every single person and every single action" Here, we are talking about players who shall remit their raquets to referees before match and get them tested for V.O.C presence. Obviously, not every single person and every single action. If ITTF cannot enforce a simple test, simply forget that silly rule and/or bring it back when you'll be ready. I also like to make "smart" analogies myself. Let's try one. How would you consider your Canadian government if they were implementing speed limitation for cars on the road without reliable radars to control it. Sole, the policeman, with his own feeling (and willing) would be in charge for the estimation. Even better : Let's imagine that only professional drivers would be allowed to drive fast cars, just because their cars have been prepared directly at manufacturer's factory...John doe should keep his average speed car and see the others have fun while he remembers the old good time when he, also, had a ferrari. How long do you think, Mr President, would last such government in any democratic country before being kicked out by the people ?

2/ "Cheaters will always be cheaters". Sorry, can't let it pass...You are talking about great champions who have dedicated their lifes to table tennis. Years of hard training with an ITTF authorized equipment. Now ITTF decides that the former authorized equipment is no longer authorized. OK, but please, don't throw names like that. I think they do deserve a little bit more respect. All in all, they are not responsible for the mess. ITTF is. I know you will never admit it but nevertheless it's good that sometimes you are given "different opinion" in order to keep an open minded attitude.

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 20:47 
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AA wrote:
...not a single referee is able to control this rule even when the treated rubber is laughing at his face.


Dear Mr. AA
i don`t thing you can treat your pimples with impunity at higher level competitions .
A good umpire, if taking his job seriously, will be able to tell such modified pimples just with naked eye, as there will always be some visible indications of the illegal treatment such as an unduly glossiness or the "scurf" over the pimples tops.

By the way, the low friction pimples is considered a trashy staff with pro-players and coaches worldwide.
Many of proficient trainers in Russia would strongly deprecate their pupils to betake to "low-friction" pimples. Those rubbers are told to be a sort of "volunteer disability" for their passive playing caracteristics and therefore wil offer very poor chance of success at professional stage/

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 21:48 
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igorponger wrote:
AA wrote:
...not a single referee is able to control this rule even when the treated rubber is laughing at his face.
Quote:

Dear Mr. AA
i don`t thing you can treat your pimples with impunity at higher level competitions .
A good umpire, if taking his job seriously, will be able to tell such modified pimples just with naked eye, as there will always be some visible indications of the illegal treatment such as an unduly glossiness or the "scurf" over the pimples tops.


:lol: if done properly, you cannot see the treatment, you are very badly informed! and kindly dont forget: there is a specific rule with the 25mN..how exactly, without a machine, do you want to determine whether the friction is at 24, 25, 26 or 24,5!?? are you taking educted guesses? any player would be able to go to court. its like a policeman standing at the road taking a guess how many km per hour someone was driving.

concerning the "trashy stuff": have a talk with chtchetinine, akerström or solja about it... :roll:

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Last edited by AA on 01 Aug 2009, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2009, 21:57 
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igorponger wrote:
Dear Mr. AA
i don`t thing you can treat your pimples with impunity at higher level competitions .
A good umpire, if taking his job seriously, will be able to tell such modified pimples just with naked eye, as there will always be some visible indications of the illegal treatment such as an unduly glossiness or the "scurf" over the pimples tops.


I disagree... most umpires do not have a clue, partially because they get to see so few of these types of rubbers. I would also think that unless they are 100% sure, they cannot simply rule the rubber 'treated' because it looks like it's treated. Remember that a certain amount of wear and tear is allowed.

igorponger wrote:
By the way, the low friction pimples is considered a trashy staff with pro-players and coaches worldwide.
Many of proficient trainers in Russia would strongly deprecate their pupils to betake to "low-friction" pimples. Those rubbers are told to be a sort of "volunteer disability" for their passive playing caracteristics and therefore wil offer very poor chance of success at professional stage iGOR
national umpire


You may be speaking for some of the pro-players and coaches worldwide, but surely not all. This type of attitude by these people is both ignorant and disrespectful to those players that play with these rubbers. The reason so few players have success at the professional stage could also easily be attributed to the lack of players that play this style, and lack of coaches that can coach it.

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 00:02 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:
Not every car on the street follows the traffic rules, not every person tells the truth, many shoplifters are not caught, etc., etc., and you don't supervise your children 100% of the time. You hope that they are honest and well educated as not to cheat, this is the "honour system". Cheaters will always be cheaters.



thats a very bad analogy. policemen are there to enforce traffic laws and they can enforce them. the difference to the ittf-rule is that not a single referee is able to control this rule even when the treated rubber is laughing at his face. sorry, take it as a fact that this idea was not thought through.


Well, I am glad we are providing you with some laughs. I hope your knee gets better soon.

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 00:23 
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jolan wrote:
adham wrote:
I have answered these questions many many times. I realize you did not read all of this thread and the special thread prepared by Haggisv on the subject. Basically, in all walks of life, it is impossible to police every single person and every single action. We make rules that are seen as what is best for the sport and its majority by the national associations that pass these rules, then we try our best to implement them and enforce them. Not every car on the street follows the traffic rules, not every person tells the truth, many shoplifters are not caught, etc., etc., and you don't supervise your children 100% of the time. You hope that they are honest and well educated as not to cheat, this is the "honour system". Cheaters will always be cheaters.

Mr President, as always, you carefully avoid to understand the main concern but here, your analogy is reaching new heights of cynicism.

1/ "Basically, in all walks of life, it is impossible to police every single person and every single action" Here, we are talking about players who shall remit their raquets to referees before match and get them tested for V.O.C presence. Obviously, not every single person and every single action. If ITTF cannot enforce a simple test, simply forget that silly rule and/or bring it back when you'll be ready. I also like to make "smart" analogies myself. Let's try one. How would you consider your Canadian government if they were implementing speed limitation for cars on the road without reliable radars to control it. Sole, the policeman, with his own feeling (and willing) would be in charge for the estimation. Even better : Let's imagine that only professional drivers would be allowed to drive fast cars, just because their cars have been prepared directly at manufacturer's factory...John doe should keep his average speed car and see the others have fun while he remembers the old good time when he, also, had a ferrari. How long do you think, Mr President, would last such government in any democratic country before being kicked out by the people ?

2/ "Cheaters will always be cheaters". Sorry, can't let it pass...You are talking about great champions who have dedicated their lifes to table tennis. Years of hard training with an ITTF authorized equipment. Now ITTF decides that the former authorized equipment is no longer authorized. OK, but please, don't throw names like that. I think they do deserve a little bit more respect. All in all, they are not responsible for the mess. ITTF is. I know you will never admit it but nevertheless it's good that sometimes you are given "different opinion" in order to keep an open minded attitude.


1. Actually that is exactly how it is in Canada. We have the largest road network in the World. So it is impossible to monitor every speeding car as you suggest. We drive based on the honour system. Police and radars are not a deterrent because there are very few. Imagine driving from Halifax to Vancouver? That is like going from Lisbon to Moscow, at least (maybe longer). You may encounter the highway police maybe 4 or 5 times in 5 days of non stop driving. So, in fact you can respect the speed limit or not. It depends on your own morals. And of course we do have many speedways for competitions where the professionals are allowed to go as fast as they can under certain rules, including the Grand Prix F1 in Montreal. In Canada we would never vote a government out because of traffic, or VOCs, we have far more important issues on which we focus. You should know that when the speed limit in the USA was reduced to 100 KM.hr (same in Canada), there were a lot of protests regarding "freedom of choice" etc., but this was never an issue that would topple a government. If every player in TT, at all levels, would make a vow to respect the rules themselves, there would be no problem. But everyone complains about the other breaking the rules. At the end it's a mater of your own conscience. The rule was proposed and adopted by the majority. Of course a minority may not like it and will complain as long as they wish. But the fact is that the rule is in effect, we control it at the manufacturing level, and if players treat the rubber to reduce the friction, then they are breaking the rule.

2. Unfortunately great Champions also cheat. Marion Jones, the greatest female Olympian, Ben Johnsson, etc. The list is very long in fact. Sorry to disappoint you. Actually, you may know that Marion Jones swore under oath that she never used performance enhancing drugs. At that time the IOC's detection methods could not detect the infraction. With improved equipment and scientific methods, the IOC was able to retest her samples 2 years later and found that she did in fact use drugs, to which she admitted. She has been suspended and her Gold Medals taken back. If the IOC would follow your advice and give up testing because they cannot enforce their own anti-doping rules, then they would never have perfected their equipment, even 2 years later. I do not want to compare us to the IOC, which has 1000 or more times our resources, but we are similarly in a catch-up and transition period. No doubt about it. We are working diligently to produce easy to use (at the table) equipment for racket control (VOC detection, thickness, gloss, friction, flatness, etc.).

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 01:44 
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Mr President, can you give your opinion, comments and other other things you can say about this topic in this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7936

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 02:44 
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speedplay wrote:
adham wrote:
jolan wrote:


2/ "Cheaters will always be cheaters". Sorry, can't let it pass...You are talking about great champions who have dedicated their lifes to table tennis. Years of hard training with an ITTF authorized equipment. Now ITTF decides that the former authorized equipment is no longer authorized. OK, but please, don't throw names like that. I think they do deserve a little bit more respect. All in all, they are not responsible for the mess. ITTF is. I know you will never admit it but nevertheless it's good that sometimes you are given "different opinion" in order to keep an open minded attitude.




2. Unfortunately great Champions also cheat. Marion Jones, the greatest female Olympian, Ben Johnsson, etc. The list is very long in fact. Sorry to disappoint you. Actually, you may know that Marion Jones swore under oath that she never used performance enhancing drugs. At that time the IOC's detection methods could not detect the infraction. With improved equipment and scientific methods, the IOC was able to retest her samples 2 years later and found that she did in fact use drugs, to which she admitted. She has been suspended and her Gold Medals taken back. If the IOC would follow your advice and give up testing because they cannot enforce their own anti-doping rules, then they would never have perfected their equipment, even 2 years later. I do not want to compare us to the IOC, which has 1000 or more times our resources, but we are similarly in a catch-up and transition period. No doubt about it. We are working diligently to produce easy to use (at the table) equipment for racket control (VOC detection, thickness, gloss, friction, flatness, etc.).


Are you guys sure you are talking about the same thing here? Cause I'm sure that Adham isn't claiming that those who have won stuff with frictionless rubbers when they were allowed were cheaters, cause back then, they were legal. Now, they have been ruled out, so those who use them now are cheaters. Right or wrong can be debated, but it is like this in most sports, the rules changes. Look at F1 racing, previously they were allowed to use slick tires, now they are not. So, winning the 1995 series with them was fine, but winning with them today would be cheating.

I actually share Adhams vision about the honorary system, but unfortunately, I've seen evidence that it don't work that way, as many people on here have discussed ways to go around the rules with out getting caught. Now, this is sad, but unfortunately there will always be people who try to break the rules to gain benefits. So, because of this, I think it is ITTF's responsibility to make rules that can be enforced, cause making rules that they can't enforce is like giving the cheaters the upper hand.


Thank you for your clarifications, yes, you are right.

Regarding rules that we can enforce, of course you are also right, but during this transition period there will be many players still breaking the rules, eventually all our rules will be enforceable to the best of our abilities. We also hope that the players rely more and more on their own skills, using equipment that is within the rules. Frankly, I do not enjoy winning at any sport if I know I took an advantage that is against the rules. It's like winning an election by rigging the voting, or acing an exam because of copying from a friend or looking up answers in crib notes. Honour is only within one's self. Each person knows whether they are honest and honourable or not, regardless of appearances or camouflages. The important thing is how does one feel when one is all alone at the end of the day before going to sleep. Did I cheat today? Or was I honest and honourable today? Only you will know the answer to this question regardless of what you have told your friends and your children and family. Of course the easiest justification is "If he cheats, so will I", or "Since they cannot enforce it, then it gives me license to break the rule". Or even the most common one "Rules are meant to be broken", and my all-time favourite "It's not cheating if no one's looking and I can get away with it". It's an educational question and a moral question. Next time I go through a department store I will ask the store manager to make sure they tie my hands and have a security guard with me all the time, otherwise I will steal and I would be justified according to statements made by many in this Forum. If they can't enforce me not stealing, then I am forced to steal. I will avoid the closed circuit cameras, I will steal when no one's looking, and I will remove the alarm setting tags, and I will be very proud that I beat the mostly difficult to enforce rules system. If this is the society we want, and if breaking rules because we cannot enforce them all the time is OK, then it will reflect your own moral standards. My hope is that we as a sport follow higher moral standards. Let's all remember that sport started without judges, umpires and referees. Let's also remember that in some sports it is still the competitors that keep the score, and do so with honour and respect. Instead of finding ways to cheat and breaking rules, let's teach our children to respect the rules whether they are enforceable or not.

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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2009, 04:59 
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In the 1920s, the USA and Canada had prohibition laws banning the consumption of alchoholic beverages. Those bans proved to be unenforceable and were repealed.

Bans on tuning and low friction rubbers are the table tennis version of prohibition. All the top players know they need to tune their inverted rubbers or treat their pips to compete against others who are doing the same.

There's a big difference between this ITTF fantasy of everyone happily accepting and following these bans, and the harsh reality that this is competition and everyone is looking for an edge. Maybe at the top, top level there can be some manner of heavy-handed enforcement, but for the majority of table tennis players, those who accept these bans are at a distinct competitive disadvantage.

What these bans have done is give even bigger incentives for players to treat their rubbers. In fact, these bans have created a whole new industry of professionals who can undetectably treat rubbers.

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