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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2009, 04:10 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
2. I personally do not know how the machine works, I leave that to the experts. But the machine used by the ITTF is certified by the proper authorities in the matter and is located in a laboratory in Germany that is also certified by the proper authorities. There are several ways to measure friction or rubber properties, and of course there are several machines and brands that can do that. The machines used by the ITTF were accepted by the court as reliable and official. The method of testing is not a secret, in fact it is a standard non-arbitrary method. But when testing, the ITTF has its own criteria that it uses to be able to quickly discover irregularities. This technology and information belongs to the ITTF because we use it for detection and random testing. The criteria to "produce" the rubber are well known and provided to the manufacturers and if they follow them, then their product would meet the ITTF's criteria. The "testing" belongs only to the ITTF obviously.


I would like to tell you, how I understand your explanation. I see here 2 possibilities.

1. In the process of authorisation you send pimples without sponge to a certified laboratory in Germany and they test the pimples whether they meet ITTF criteria using a special certified machine. The method of testing is not a secret.

Then you buy suspicious pimpled rubber, separate the pimples from the sponge and send pimples without sponge to the same certified laboratory in Germany and they test the same pimples whether they meet the same ITTF criteria using the same special certified machine. The method of testing in this case is however different and secret.

That does not make sense to me at all. I am afraid very few people will believe this story.

2. You did not say actually, that you sent the suspicious pimpled rubber for the second test to the certified laboratory. Than it is quite understandable, that your test without the certified machine is secret. Because your test without the machine can not be equally reliable. Otherwise you would not have sent pimples to this laboratory in Germany at all.

I really think you should clarify this issue at least for the sake of credibility of ITTF.


I'm afraid that I don't understand the question. Basically there are two level of tests, done through the same laboratory. The first one is as you described, a test by the laboratory to check that the rubber meets the ITTF criteria, there are specific machines used in these tests. This is usually sufficient. However, when there are suspicions that the originally tested rubber, which passed all the tests, is for some reason "suspicious", then a second test is done using more in depth analysis (infra-red, etc.) which also detects if the rubber was "treated" chemically or otherwise. I hope this clarifies.

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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2009, 19:11 
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adham wrote:

I personally do not know the exact number.This was presented at the court case and accepted. The point is that the number of samples (whatever number) was sufficient and accepted by law.


sorry, i cant accept this, this is legal mumbo jumbo. every party in a court case is free to present evidence, there is no stated amount of samples in any law for a test to be accepted in court, so even if the ittf only took one sample it would have been accepted in court, whether the judge would have based his decision on it is a different question. you should also should have added that ttmaster also presented a "sufficient" study that was "accepted" which clearly stated that there were no different levels in friction between neck of the pimples and the rest of the rubber.

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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2009, 23:40 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:

I personally do not know the exact number.This was presented at the court case and accepted. The point is that the number of samples (whatever number) was sufficient and accepted by law.


sorry, i cant accept this, this is legal mumbo jumbo. every party in a court case is free to present evidence, there is no stated amount of samples in any law for a test to be accepted in court, so even if the ittf only took one sample it would have been accepted in court, whether the judge would have based his decision on it is a different question. you should also should have added that ttmaster also presented a "sufficient" study that was "accepted" which clearly stated that there were no different levels in friction between neck of the pimples and the rest of the rubber.


OK don't accept. Thank you.

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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2009, 23:46 
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bbkon wrote:
ITTF made a favour to walnder and europe ,they did what nobody could do at the table, beating liu banning hisraquet. its extremely fishy banning a rubber that the biggest threat of europe was using

WHAT IS NEXT BANNING HURRICANE AND HAIFU?

I am afraid you are insulting Liu Guoliang, Waldner and Prsson with your comment. Liu Guoliang is a great Champion regardless what equipment he would use. This is a player that goes betyond equipment, his skills are that of a World and Olympic champion. This is the same for Mr. Waldner, he is a great champion regard;ess of what equipment his opponents use. I am sure you were being sarcastic and did not imply that Mr. Liu could only win because of his rubber, or that Mr. Waldner could only win when Mr. Liu changed his rubber? These are great players and we all respect them immensly and let's not tarnish their accomplishments with unnecessary and unfounded suppositions.

The ITTF does not "ban" any piece of equipment. The equipment either meets the ITTF criteria and regulations or it does not. It's that simple.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 00:51 
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adham wrote:
The ITTF does not "ban" any piece of equipment. The equipment either meets the ITTF criteria and regulations or it does not. It's that simple.


You guys have banned certain TTMaster rubbers.

In my opinion you failed to prove, that these authorised rubbers didn’t meet the ITTF critereria. Who will believe the story about secret testing of secret number of samples.

You also banned legal speed glue and legal frictionless pimples.


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 01:23 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
The ITTF does not "ban" any piece of equipment. The equipment either meets the ITTF criteria and regulations or it does not. It's that simple.


You guys have banned certain TTMaster rubbers.

In my opinion you failed to prove, that these authorised rubbers didn’t meet the ITTF critereria. Who will believe the story about secret testing of secret number of samples.

You also banned legal speed glue and legal frictionless pimples.


FACT: Some of the TTMasters rubbers that are no longer on our authorization list were dealt with in court. Some others were not submitted by TTMaster as their own choice. Proof was substantial. All testing results were submitted openly. You believe what you want to believe. I am just giving you facts.

FACT: we never banned any "legal" speed glue, we established a "VOC-free policy".

FACT: we never banned "legal" low-friction pimples, we esablished a threshold for low friction pimpled rubber.

In the same vein, FACT: we never banned 38mm balls, we established a new size for the ball at 40mm, and we did not ban 21 point games, we established a new rule with 11-point games, and we did not ban hidden serves, we established a new rule for open serve, etc.

In fact, all rule changes are made according to a process and that is what we do.

Frankly I am getting very tired of this, but I understand that I must repeat and repeat. In Arabic language there is a proverb that says "El etekrar be allem el homar". And my great grandfather's name was Jobe, very appropriate I would say.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 02:00 
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adham wrote:
[

The ITTF does not "ban" any piece of equipment. The equipment either meets the ITTF criteria and regulations or it does not. It's that simple.


the fact that you are parsing words shows that you are not willing to enter a respectful discussion.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 06:12 
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Is there really a problem with the word „ban“?

I use a pop-up dictionary “WordWeb”, this is how they define “ban”: “Prohibit especially by legal means or social pressure” etc.

Weren’t 38mm ball and other things prohibited by legal means? Yes, they were.

Although I believe, speed glue ban and frictionless pimples ban were made not only for fake reasons (non-existing “health issues” and “need to uncover treated rubbers”), but also illegally in sense of ITTF Constitution.


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 07:39 
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speedplay wrote:
And finally, my latest objection on this, back to sponges here, you have stated that the ITTF makes rules for the world class players, while amateur players are free to follow what ever rules they like and they should rather deal with their NA's then be dealing with the ITTF with any complaints. Now, how many pro's are there that actually buy sponge and top sheet separately? My guess is, none, as these guys are sponsored and if the want one top sheet with a different sponge, then they will get this from their sponsor. The way I see it, this rule is made for the ones you claim you don't make the rules for. Or, have I missed something here?


A very good argument. =D>


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 07:41 
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speedplay wrote:
With the glues on the other hand, I think that speed glue have never really been with in the rules made by the ITTF, but it have still been accepted as a part of the game before, but not any longer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rule about changing the rubbers characteristics have been around for some time, right? And we all know that speed glue did this.


I am afraid, this is not correct, if you mean this rule: “2.4.7 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.”.

This rule 2.4.7 was adopted 2008. Speed glue was banned 4 years earlier: 2004.


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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 08:06 
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speedplay wrote:

I must be honest and say that I don't think this is parsing words, even though English isn't my native language. There is a difference between banning something and establishing new rules,


its plays no role whether its a ban or whether the ittf changed the rules to get rid of rubbers, the outcome is the same. its just a distraction that is getting very tiresome.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 08:53 
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adham wrote:
....In Arabic language there is a proverb that says "El etekrar be allem el homar."

Care to translate that? According to a google search "homar" is a derogatory term that refers to someone of very limited intelligence and/or an a*ss :shock: :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 09:10 
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Can I just remind everyone that this forum is not a court of law, but a friendly discussion forum. If you don't like the answer that Adham gives you, be grateful that he did take the time to give you an answer and offer us with more information.

If we're not happy with the current situation, we can, as individuals or together as a forum, formulate a letter to the national associations to try and get things changed. We've done this before with some success, and it is far more constructive than arguing the same point over and over again with Adham.

Adham has indicated on previous occasions that he supports this type of approach, and might even be able to help us along the way...

So c'mon guys, lets keep it friendly and constructive...

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 10:07 
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haggisv wrote:

So c'mon guys, lets keep it friendly and constructive...[/color][/b]


adham wrote:


OK don't accept. Thank you.



@mynamenotbob - the second half means "..teaches the donkey/ass", i`ll try to figure out what is meant with "etekrar"..

@adham - another question: in your email to my friend you clearly stated that the sponge issue was only of "academic nature" since there will be a change in 2010. in this forum however you state that the ittf "experts" are only trying to implement this in a trial stage, hereby you are trying to suggest that everything is being thought out through thouroughly before a decision is made.

both statements cannot be correct. either the decision to make this change has been made (as suggested in your email) without knowing how this will be achieved or the decision (yes/no) will be based on what the outcome of these "trials" are, this version however is in direct conflict with your email answer.

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PostPosted: 23 Sep 2009, 11:30 
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AA wrote:
adham wrote:
[

The ITTF does not "ban" any piece of equipment. The equipment either meets the ITTF criteria and regulations or it does not. It's that simple.


the fact that you are parsing words shows that you are not willing to enter a respectful discussion.


In international sports the word "ban" has a different connotation. Whereas changing rules is a completely different process. For example, the ITTF has banned the use of flash (photography) during matches. As opposed to, the ITTF has changed the size of the ball from 38mm to 40mm. Or you could say, the International Ice Hockey federation has banned fighting from all Junior Hockey events. As opposed to, the IHF has changed the offside rule.

In the case of equipment, the ITTF, like may other sports, has rules that are changed periodically by the members iof the ITTF. At any given time, the equipment produced either meets the ITTF requirements for approval (quality element) or authorization (criteria met) or does not meet it. If it does not meet it, the equipment is not "banned", it is just not approved or not authorized, which means it cannot carry the ITTF logo. The equipment could still exist and you can use it where it is accepted, like in your own club or school or in your house, but you cannot use it at ITTF events unless it meets ITTF criteria.

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