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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2023, 15:39 
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Blade: Petr Korbel
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Ive been playing table tennis for 5 years now, and recently started taking it more seriously. For years I used a Joola Viva (similar to the stiga clipper) that I bought because I thought it looked cool. Eventually I did a little research and decided I should go with a slower blade with more feel to develop my strokes so I switch the the Petr Korbel. I played with it for a bit and then recently switched back to my Viva which I realized was a much better fit for me. I guess I play pretty aggressively and a faster blade works well for me. I decided I wanted to try something even faster.
I started going down a rabbit hole into what makes blades feel different. After researching extensively about different wood composition I decided I should either go with ALC blade with limba outer plys like the hurricane long 5 or something like the Stiga Infinity VPS V which is all wood limba outer ply but with spruce underneath to make it stiffer. I thought I should stick with limba outer since thats what im used to. But I was also curious to try Koto outer ply blades.
I live in NYC and there's not many table tennis clubs in my neighborhood where I can try different blades. I was thinking the best way to feel the difference from koto to limba would be to use a blade with similar composition to mine but with koto on the outside. Jumping to something like the viscera wouldn't help me understand since i've never used carbon.
I spent hours on forums and this site https://stervinou.net/ttbdb/compo.php trying to find different options. Something like Koto - Limba - Ayous - Limba - Koto would be good because its like the korbel with just the outer plys changed to koto. It says The Korbel speed is composted like that but seems to be discontinued or Koto -Ayous - Ayous -Ayous -Koto, but there wasn't any options for those in the brands I like. Looked for a 7 ply Koto -Limba- Ayous - Ayous -Ayous -limba -Koto but couldn't find that. Couldn't find any Koto - Ayous- Ayous - Ayous -Ayous -Ayous -Koto which would be a clipper with koto instead of limba. The site above said the Joola Wing Medium is Koto -Ayous - kiri -Ayous -Koto which would be a viscaria without the ALC, but couldnt find where to buy it also seemed like a strange design.
All these compositions seem like they would make sense but couldn't find them anywhere, is there a reason they don't make these? Seems like there's no intermediary Koto blade. All the ones I seen have ALC, ZLC, or Carbon. Idk how people have even been making comparisons between Koto and limba when there not many all wood blades with similar composition that can be compared.
If you know of any blades with these compositions or have advice for me about getting a faster blade please let me know. Really wanna get to the bottom of this. Thanks.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2023, 18:43 
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attii wrote:
Couldn't find any Koto - Ayous- Ayous - Ayous -Ayous -Ayous -Koto which would be a clipper with koto instead of limba.


https://stervinou.net/ttbdb/compo.php

Butterfly Timo Boll W7 7 94 6.7 Koto Ayous Ayous Ayous Ayous Ayous Koto
DHS Power G9 7 89 6.3 Koto Ayous Ayous Ayous Ayous Ayous Koto


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2023, 08:10 
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Thanks, I didn’t see those. I’d be curious to try one and see how it compares to my Joola viva. I think that would still be alittle too fast for me. Would be nice to find one with limba under the koto.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2023, 18:38 
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Koto, Limba or extra hard wood outer ply choice is not very important for most players but if it is important for you then you should not worry much about Koto own speed.

Blade speed does depends on blade overall thickness and overall weight (that is approximation of total hardness of complete combination). Different top ply's wood species bring different feel on touch shots ("first gear"). This feel does not mean much for players with consistent technique and playing level where power play is normal. Also the feel is only noticeable during first hours of play with a new equipment then all feedback from your racket is muted from your brains as one plays mostly with reflexes.

What may be interesting to know for equipment junkie is blade construction philosophy and used wood glue. I know Sweden school and Japanese school of blade engineering. Chinese is something in between. Not sure about Korean and others.


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2023, 19:48 
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You could try the Xiom Hugo Calderano SAL or HAL which have SUPER ARYLATE plus Koto outers for good control and spin

https://www.xiom.eu/hugo-calderano-sal


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2023, 06:22 
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Omut wrote:
Koto, Limba or extra hard wood outer ply choice is not very important for most players but if it is important for you then you should not worry much about Koto own speed.

Blade speed does depends on blade overall thickness and overall weight (that is approximation of total hardness of complete combination). Different top ply's wood species bring different feel on touch shots ("first gear"). This feel does not mean much for players with consistent technique and playing level where power play is normal. Also the feel is only noticeable during first hours of play with a new equipment then all feedback from your racket is muted from your brains as one plays mostly with reflexes.

What may be interesting to know for equipment junkie is blade construction philosophy and used wood glue. I know Sweden school and Japanese school of blade engineering. Chinese is something in between. Not sure about Korean and others.
I guess it is more complicated than I thought, I was assuming the composition of wood is the main factor in the feeling of blade, but I see how the glue and thickness of layers contribute greatly. It’s all so complicated to understand I just thought if I can understand the layers and change one layer at a time I could figure out why different blades feel different. Might be easier to just try and bunch and pick a favorite without thinking about it too much.


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2023, 16:27 
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Also blade flex, weight and balance and even handle size and shape will all contribute so yes if you can try quite a few blades with same type of rubbers you would use, that would be the best route.


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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2023, 20:39 
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sk123 wrote:
attii wrote:
Couldn't find any Koto - Ayous- Ayous - Ayous -Ayous -Ayous -Koto which would be a clipper with koto instead of limba.


https://stervinou.net/ttbdb/compo.php



Are they serious?? :lol:

Sanwei M8 5 80 6.0 Walnut Walnut Walnut Walnut Walnut

No way this is correct... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2023, 13:34 
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I've wondered the same about Koto....

I started experimenting fabricating my own blades around October of last year, and I have used Koto on a Viscaria "clone" (my 19th blade) and on an experimental 7-ply with a 3.1mm Kiri core (my 17th blade). I made the former blade for a good TT friend while I was transitioning into how to build composite blades. I cant say much either as to Koto specifically, as I actually haven't tried blade #0017, but I do know that I designed it similarly to my 15th blade (which is the blade I currently use). If you wish to follow my own experimental "TT Rabbit Hole", you can check out my documentation of all the blades I've made so far on my Instagram (I also sell the ones I've made, but haven't used. I'll copy the link at the end).

With my 15th blade, I used Avodire, which is very similar to Koto, as the outer ply (slightly harder on the janka scale with a better elasticity for flex, and lighter). The Avodire was[is] over .8mm Hinoki, .8mm ayous, and a 3.1mm Kiri core, and each layer was hide glued with a total thickness of 7.4mm (this was the first blade I used this type of adhesion with, and I haven't made one with PVA glue since). Its similar to blade #0017 in that they each have unconventionally thick cores for 7-ply wood blades, which I feel allows a bit more flex feeling than with 7-ply's with relatively similar core and inner ply thicknesses. The cores in these particular cases flex about as much as they would with ALC blade (due to the similar core and veneer thicknesses), and allow the surface woods to flex and "throw" their properties over the core's properties. This is very simplified, but it seemed very true with the blade I'm using.

I have not used blade #0017, as Ive said, but I would imagine it to have very similar properties to mine, but instead of Avodire:Hinoki:Ayous:Kiri:Ayous:Hinoki:Avodire (@ 7.4mm, 100.8g), it is Koto:Spruce:Ayous:Kiri:Ayous:Spruce:Koto (@ 6.4mm, 99.0g); and the hinoki may be doing some magic in blade#0015. As I mentioned earlier, if you are interested in my experimentation so far check out my link below; its a kind of diary I'm keeping for this journey...

https://www.instagram.com/lilypad_pingpong/

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2023, 13:59 
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Consider checking out the Xiom Solo, I think it's a good balance between a stiff solid 7 ply and a more flexible 5 ply. Koto outer, good feeling, maintains some flex despite its 6.4mm thickness

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2024, 02:35 
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Donic Persson powerplay has thin koto outter and ayous inner. Maybe you could give that a try.


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