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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 02:26 
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anand0077 wrote:
hi Manii tried yasaka shining dragon boosted (xtreme revolution booster 3 layers) on my new blade its like mark 5 rubber with better control and better speed but great stability and behaves like chinese rubber even after boosting i mean no tensor effect however when u start exerting force it comes to life like the Chinese rubbers and omg terrific spin compared to speed.I am going to play in a 2 star tournament with my new and great equipment
xion zeta quad with 729 08 on fh and YSDG on bh
I agree with you 729 rubbers are amazingly cheap and very good quality my 729 08 pretuned rubber lasted almost one full year with no decrease in performance.
Have u played with any of the new 729 rubbers i meant
729 faster F has harder one for FH and softer one for BH
729 BLOOM POWER
729 Presto

also i found out that battle 2 comes in 45 degree for bh, wanted to know how safe is it to order from aliexpress or alibaba.


Can you explain this "tensor effect" to me? I've played with myriad Chinese rubbers and a number of Tensor-type rubbers but I've not been able to tell what this "tensor effect" is. I do know the Tensor rubbers tend to shrink and become very slow after a couple months.

AliExpress is like Ebay. Thousands and thousands of sellers. Some are OK, some will rip you off (NEVER buy ANY memory products on AliExpress - USB sticks, SD cards... you have been warned...). Here's how to tell the reliable "stores". Do a search for "Yinhe 9000". You'll see seven stores with the 2 for 1 packs in clear plastic vacuum packs. The prices will all be different, but they're all really one company, Eacheng. Eacheng is ultra-reliable. XVT is OK too (but somewhat less helpful). There are one or two well-known others. Alibaba? Unless you want 400 sheets of rubber, or a metric ton of plastic film, they're not for you.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 03:26 
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Blade: XIOM ZETA TETRA QUAD
FH: 729 08 PRETUNED
BH: YASAKA SHINING DRAGON
thanks for letting me know the sellers
tensor effect is basically due to oil sitting and occupying the sponge airspaces(it makes the rubber more elastic us see this with more harder rubbers i mean with hardness of 49) and i mean the pores so after boosting if u drop a ball on the blade u should see more bounces on the rubber than before . for ex t05 will have around 10 bounces on it before stopping i mean dropping the ball from about 3 to 4 feet. On YSD it was bouncing about 4 to 5 times before it stopped after boosting no increase at all ideally there is an increase in one or two additional bounces.Its a weird hybrid but very good rubber for BH as its stable and high quality rubber to learn the strokes.

Boosting changes the trajectory different i mean it makes it more flatter than a high arc and tendency for the ball to end up at the edges of the table more often. If u boost t05 with hardness of 6 it will make it less bouncier due to oil now occupying the larger airspaces this is why the pro t05 is with harder sponge and they boost it with oil look at the sound of the ball when hit with such blades its like a zip sound which u dont get with regular rubbers.I know this bcoz i boosted a lot of rubbers but more benefit obtained with harder sponges with medium hard sponges dont do it u wont get anything.

There are some new boosters which are different than oil and have animal hydrocarbons in them i mean they have plant ones xtreme revolution booster is tad different effect i am getting a feeling that this one makes the sponge more harder than before on long term as there is around 20% increase in speed and spin and lasts over the life span of the rubber rather than few weeks as with falco.I have used it with battle 1 and it lasted for about 6 months it doesnot increase the sponge thickness which is why i feel it has an effect on the sponge. I have used it on YSD now will see how it goes now


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 13:14 
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Wow.. this is all very interesting information. Where ARE you getting all this information from? Harder sponged Tenergy? Animal hydrocarbons?? Hmmm... What are these newfangled boosters? :lol: When I eventually get around to buying Tenergy I'm going to have to try this "bouncy" test of yours... the reason a lot of Chinese rubbers aren't "bouncy" is because they're tacky. Try this with H3 and see what I mean. I wonder how many times Rakza 7 will bounce... that's the next sheet I'm trying.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 06:56 
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Blade: XIOM ZETA TETRA QUAD
FH: 729 08 PRETUNED
BH: YASAKA SHINING DRAGON
iskandar taib wrote:
Wow.. this is all very interesting information. Where ARE you getting all this information from? Harder sponged Tenergy? Animal hydrocarbons?? Hmmm... What are these newfangled boosters? :lol: When I eventually get around to buying Tenergy I'm going to have to try this "bouncy" test of yours... the reason a lot of Chinese rubbers aren't "bouncy" is because they're tacky. Try this with H3 and see what I mean. I wonder how many times Rakza 7 will bounce... that's the next sheet I'm trying.

Iskandar


On BH i consider rakza 7 the best next to tenergy 05 as it is slightly slower and more spinnier and grippier than t 05 if u play on same blades u can find out i had them on my YEO P7 which i recently sold. T05 is more faster no question about it.

Dont even question this, Tenergy used by commoners is around 36 degrees this degree of hardness is the reason the rubber lasts longer.If u play with tenergy daily in a
competitive league i mean daily very high competitive matches 7/day for 2 weeks the rubber will be done by 10 days and starts going down.

For PRO players when they put this hardness on a hard blade the ball will sink in so easily they will not get any momentum on the shots and the ball will shoot off the table easily and the force which the pro players hit the rubber will not last more than a match due to ball sinking in deep and causing more wear and tear per shot as the ball comes in contact with too much rubber.

How they mitigate this very impt ,they add more denser harder high quality harder sponge and slightly thicker outer layer to last the wear and tear, and yes most of them then boost this rubber ex gao ning always plays with boosted t05 see how it sounds so weird like zip zip sound.Higher quality harder sponge and outer layer are more lighter than the one they make for commoners. Also i am sure butterfly sells the outer layer and sponge separately to academies of countries which they sponsor or the players which they sponsor.No way chinese FH rubbers can be beaten by tensors on FH.

Also there is a statement by zhang Zike who plays with t05 39 degree on bh who said in an interview that he changes his rubber after every tournament and if its like a olympics where they have to play team championship then twice in it they change the rubber.I have a gut feeling that it is T80 than t05 he plays with due to the way he makes some shots they are not possible with t05.

Also Calderanos rubber is a regular tensor rubber but look at the hardness it is 8/10 target pro gt 51 look how much force he has to put to create each forehand shot its enormous, not all of them can do it.

The booster i use is https://www.megaspin.net/store/default. ... me-booster its different from the falco that it doesnot increase the sponge thickness and it has a different effect on rubber than falco so that the rubber lasts for longer with the effect and it has plant hydrocarbons which are safe and not cancerous


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 06:58 
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Blade: XIOM ZETA TETRA QUAD
FH: 729 08 PRETUNED
BH: YASAKA SHINING DRAGON
Please dont boost rakza 7 its already good from get go and it has esn sponge no added effect u get from it if using on BH. On FH u can attempt it.


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 10:01 
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anand0077 wrote:
Dont even question this, Tenergy used by commoners is around 36 degrees this degree of hardness is the reason the rubber lasts longer.If u play with tenergy daily in a
competitive league i mean daily very high competitive matches 7/day for 2 weeks the rubber will be done by 10 days and starts going down.

For PRO players when they put this hardness on a hard blade the ball will sink in so easily they will not get any momentum on the shots and the ball will shoot off the table easily and the force which the pro players hit the rubber will not last more than a match due to ball sinking in deep and causing more wear and tear per shot as the ball comes in contact with too much rubber.


Why not? (Question this..) :lol: There is so much misinformation and silliness floating around the net, especially when it comes to table tennis equipment, are you sure the information you're getting isn't "fake news"? Have you actually had Calderano's racket in your hand and pressed on the rubber, let alone taken a Durometer to it? :lol: 10 days, huh? I've heard a month before this, 10 days sounds a little much..

anand0077 wrote:
The booster i use is https://www.megaspin.net/store/default. ... me-booster its different from the falco that it doesnot increase the sponge thickness and it has a different effect on rubber than falco so that the rubber lasts for longer with the effect and it has plant hydrocarbons which are safe and not cancerous


That's not what I asked. I wanted to know which of these newfangled boosters has "animal hydrocarbons". And where the information comes from. Boosters don't have ingredient lists on the bottle, not like chocolate bars do. I mean, you know, there are vegans out there who might want to avoid them as a matter of principle. I'm not saying your information is wrong, but I am interested in where you get it. Some of this is suspiciously familiar but it's just stuff people repeat - no idea if it's ever been verified. At least you haven't gotten into the National Hurricane stuff yet.. :lol:

anand0077 wrote:
Please dont boost rakza 7 its already good from get go and it has esn sponge no added effect u get from it if using on BH. On FH u can attempt it.


So why would it be OK to boost Tenergy 05? :lol: (I think most of us on this forum who use boosters to rejuvenate dying Tensors rather that use them on new Tensor sheets. That and boosting H3.)

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2018, 16:12 
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OK, the next rubber. Since there was so much talk about Palio AK47 Blue, I thought I'd order a sheet and try it out. It's fairly inexpensive now (in the $11-12 range). So yeah, this isn't a "training rubber" (I think we've pretty much run out of those by now.. :lol: ). This is one of three "new" AK47 rubbers that Palio sells, the other two being Yellow and Red. It's got the softest sponge of the three, which is probably why it's the most popular with European players.

When it finally arrived (I ordered it from the "Officialr Palio Store" even though it cost 11 or 12 cents more than it did at Eacheng at the time, just to see what "officialr" meant, but it took over four weeks), I noticed a few things. First, the packaging. NOT vacuum packed. It comes in a cellophane wrapper which does NOT have a sticky resealable flap (like the cheaper offerings from, say, Reactor and Kokutaku), and has a decently printed cardboard insert. This is a step above said Reactor Corbor and 868 rubbers, which have REALLY CHEAP packaging (PAPER insert inside a resealable cellophane bag) but below some of the nicer packaging from 729 or DHS. It has NO plastic protector sheet stuck to the topsheet, but instead has a sheet of what looks like vellum or heavy glassine over the topsheet. (Yinhe Mars II and Big Dipper, not to mention Tensors, and MX-P and Rakza X are packaged like this.) The topsheet surface is NOT shiny smooth, it's textured (very much like CJ8000). Unlike other Palio sheets I've used in the past it is NOT dished. The sponge is blue and the pores are larger than normal, but nowhere as big as the pores you find in, say, Rasant. I mounted it on one of my many Sanwei M8 blades (number 1, replacing a sheet of Haifu Whale), putting a sheet of generic-packaged Yinhe 9000 on the other side.

The first playing session was on a really rainy, humid day (they've all been like this for the past couple months). I was missing and mis-hitting a lot of shots, and I was thinking, is this rubber really so different from all the rubbers I've tried? Flipping the bat around (so the Yinhe 9000 was on the forehand) didn't seem to bear that out too well, I played just slightly better, and was making more loops. The AK47 on the backhand worked OK, but it was pretty unsatisfying. The second session (the following weekend) was different - maybe it was because I got a chance to warm up before the games began (fewer people around), and the racket felt a great deal more comfortable. If there was a difference between this rubber and others, maybe it was better at producing spin. The difference is subtle, if it there. In any case, I'll have to go with my usual assertion - it doesn't differ enough from other rubbers to matter that much - it works, it works well, but so do a lot of other rubbers.

Normally I'd post scans of the rubber and sponge at this point but the computer hooked up to the scanner is broken at this point. But here's the data:

Palio AK47 Blue
red 60.99g 168x168mm 0.216 g/cm^2

Is it light? Yes.. but not unusually so (H3 is slightly lighter, and it's markedly lighter than MX-P and Rakza X).

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2018, 11:24 
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Interesting observation. My latest sheet of Mercury II (for a friend's penhold bat) was 1) NOT packed in the old Yinhe vacuum pack, but was in the sort of packaging you'd expect with 729 rubber - a cardboard fold-over plus a cellophane wrapper with a fold-over sticky closure, and 2) surprise - it's got a DHS-like anti-counterfeiting scratch-off disc thingie on the "protector sheet". Except this one has a QR code on it. You scan it with your phone and it takes you to a website, and you notice that the 20 digit (I think) code has already been entered (it's probably part of the QR code). And the answer is in Chinese, of course, which I could not read.. :lol: So apparently people are counterfeiting Mercury II now?? A $5 rubber??? Wow.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 21:37 
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Blade: DHS PowerG-9 OFF++
FH: Yasaka Rakza X
BH: Palio Thor
I recently bought pair of Yinhe 9000 in a vacuum sealed ( 2 for 1 packing no labels just vacuum sealed plastic packet ). Any advise on how much to boost ( Falco? BabyOil?) ? Should I use rubber cement, or WBG ? I want to be able to smash loop and deep push/cut/chop but I don't need too much speed. :lol: :D My shoulder is starting to recover, it will be another month of shoulder brace and icing and stretching ... hopefully start doing girly pushups and then try to get back in shape :lol: :rofl:

My current training setups are :
Backup trainer setup: ( wet/humid days, little kids at the table, blockers )
729 Bomb + H3 + H2 ( Lemon oil on topsheets , both Unboosted )
TSP Versal + 2 x 729 SuperFX ( Falco green label, wears off after 1month , helps gluing dished rubbers)
Main trainer setup: ( seniors, state level players kids included,modern defense players, SP/OX/Anti)
Stag Balsa Koto + Rakza7 + Xiom Vega Asia ( Unboosted ... currently 2 months old )

What will give me insane spin without the extra speed ? :lol: :rofl:

I also got Xiom Vega Asia and Omega V Asia. XVegaAsia shrunk on my blade and I had to re-glue it back on.

All advise on the training setup welcome :-) What blade to mount the Yinhe 9000 ? Hard-composite? Like TSP BB7 ? or Softer wood TSP Versal / Stag Balsa-Koto or Flexi sponge 729 Bomb? or Hard wood DHS PG-9 ? or Power-wood Yasaka Battle Balsa ? :rofl: :rofl: :lol: :lol: :D :D

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__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:
  • TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
    1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
    2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
  • 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
  • TSP Versal :
    1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
    2. FH/BH-*blank*
Fun blades:
  • Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
  • Dr. Neubauer
    High Technology
    Cypress-Carbon(ST)
    ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7
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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 21:39 
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Just mounted my sheet of Reactor Tornado (in the orange packet) on one of my M8s, replacing a sheet of AK47 Blue. Now I've got two sheets of black on that blade! :lol: (Yinhe 9000 on the other side.)

Image

This uses the older topsheet, without the ITTF number.

Image

Reactor Tornado (old topsheet)
black med hard 56.08g 165.5x164.5mm 0.206g/cm^2

Quite light. We'll have to see how it plays. I bought this based discussion on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35373&start=15

I will compare it to the (admittedly old and well used) sheet of Rakza 7 on another M8 blade that has been my main weapon for the last 3-4 months. The sponge on the Tornado is definitely firmer. Apparently "Tornado" is written as "Gold Wind" in Chinese... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2019, 02:23 
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By the way.. the NEW version of Tornado (V5), in the silver packet, seems to be on sale ($8.32) at the moment:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32827542809.html

Image

Image

Image

Maybe I should get a sheet for completeness.. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 18:24 
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Some stuff I bought recently (mostly as a result of discussions on this forum:

1) Tuttle Octopus

Image

This is sort of "jumping the gun" on the part of Tuttle (the Chinese Tuttle, not the Japanese one). The ITTF announced that they were going to allow rubbers in colors other than black and red. The colors haven't been decided yet, but Tuttle decided to immediately start selling this. I ordered a sheet of yellow - I wish I'd gotten the green now, since the yellow looks ooogly. Not ITTF approved, of course.

Tuttle Octopus
yellow 56.43g 164.5x164mm 0.209g/cm^2

Quite light. The sheet I got was non-tacky, though it had a sticky protector sheet on it. The packaging was nice indeed, much better than I thought it'd be. Kokutaku/Tuttle sells 868 in the twin pack, those have really low class packaging.

2) Reactor Tornado

Image

Image

Image

This sheet, according to the discussion, plays much like Rakza 7, which is why I thought I'd give it a try. Rakza 7 is the latest of the "expensive" sheets I've been trying. There's actually two types of Tornado - I'll have to try the newer "V5" now, since it's on sale for about $8.

Reactor Tornado
black med hard 56.08g 165.5x164.4mm 0.206g/cm^2

Turned out to be quite light - 11 grams lighter (about 19% lighter) than Rakza 7. I asked for the med. soft and got the med. hard instead (they probably just ship whatever is in stock). The sheet is mildly tacky, it comes with a sticky "protector sheet".

3) Three Sword Red Dragon

Image

Image

I must admit, I had high hopes for this sheet, because it's supposedly "better than "Butterf-- Tenerg-". It also comes in a "old" and a "new" version (the one I got was the new version). There's a black sponge (softer) and a red sponge (harder), I got the black. It certainly LOOKED great when it came - as it comes out of the (very nice) package you'd think it was some kind of Tensor - the same floppy feel, the same really grippy top sheet surface, and instead of the usual Chinese protector plastic, there's a nice, heavy piece of what looks like drafting vellum on the face of the sheet (just as you'd get with a Tensor). Quite light also (it's interesting that all three sheets turned out to be light:

3 Sword Red Dragon Black Sponge
black 59.75g 164x165mm 0.221 g/cm^2

OK. Now for the comments. The Tornado came first. Not terribly impressive at first glance, the sponge definitely FELT harder than Rakza 7. I mounted it to a M8 blade, replacing an old sheet of AK47 Blue (Yinhe 9000 on the other side, had been in use for a while). First impressions were that it was slightly slower than Rakza 7, but I could switch back and forth between the two without much trouble. This despite Tornado being moderately tacky and Rakza 7 being non-tacky. I prepared a new blade (another M8) and mounted Octopus on one side and Red Dragon on the other. It had the effect of freaking out the others when I brought it out the first time. Initial hitting around with it revealed something disappointing - despite feeling really grippy, the Red Dragon felt like it lacked spin. So did the Octopus. This was especially true for light contact loops. I could adjust to it if I hit the ball a little heavier, but it felt somewhat disquieting, like there was some sort of lack of control. Switching back to the bat with the Tornado brought immediate relief - the control came back. I've played maybe 3-4 hours total with both of these bats and am quite certain of this difference. Mind you, it isn't much - like most differences between rubbers, it's a subtle thing - you know something's different (or something's wrong) but you have to think really hard to 1) become convinced that something really is different, and 2) figure out what it is, exactly. Have I come across this sort of thing before? Yes, with Yinhe Mars II (another Chinese non-tacky rubber). I had the same disquieting feeling about it, but I couldn't exactly say why. I've NEVER felt this same way with any of the real Tensors I've tried - Rasant, Rakza X, Rakza 7 - and Evolution MX-P (which I believe is actually a Japanese sheet). Nor did AK47 Blue feel like this. So despite the claims comparing Red Dragon to "Butterf-- Tenerg-", I'll have to say, well, I hope Tenergy isn't like this...

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2019, 04:24 
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Blade: DHS PowerG-9 OFF++
FH: Yasaka Rakza X
BH: Palio Thor
Just now I removed Rakza7 and 729 SuperFX from my training blade.

Stag Balsa Koto + Xiom Omega V Asia black + Yinhe Jupiter II 38deg red ( provincial ? ) == 164 g ( 64g blade, 55g XOVA , 45g YJ2 )

Mounted back TG2Neo black on the 729 Bomb ... already has H3 original red untuned ...

I will need to try it all out coming weekend :-P plenty of things keeping me busy and away from the table :-P :lol: :lol: :lol: :@ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Also I got Rakza9 on my TSP BB7 with Xiom Omega V Tour ... ( some of my older Euro rubbers )

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:
  • TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
    1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
    2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
  • 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
  • TSP Versal :
    1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
    2. FH/BH-*blank*
Fun blades:
  • Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
  • Dr. Neubauer
    High Technology
    Cypress-Carbon(ST)
    ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7
==========================================================


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2019, 22:33 
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Blade: Nittaku Acoustic (C-Pen)
FH: DHS Skyline TG2 Neo
BH: DHS Skyline 3-60
man_iii wrote:
Just now I removed Rakza7 and 729 SuperFX from my training blade.

Stag Balsa Koto + Xiom Omega V Asia black + Yinhe Jupiter II 38deg red ( provincial ? ) == 164 g ( 64g blade, 55g XOVA , 45g YJ2 )

Mounted back TG2Neo black on the 729 Bomb ... already has H3 original red untuned ...

I will need to try it all out coming weekend :-P plenty of things keeping me busy and away from the table :-P :lol: :lol: :lol: :@ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Also I got Rakza9 on my TSP BB7 with Xiom Omega V Tour ... ( some of my older Euro rubbers )


Crazy light set up! How much gap do you have before the handle?

I just put fresh H3PTO and G1 on my acoustic (this time with no gap) and it’s 203g!! Takes some time getting used to.


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 Post subject: Re: Training rubber
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 03:03 
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Those look like balsa blades. No wonder they're light.. :lol:

Proper setup for penhold (he plays Chinese penhold) is with a 10-15mm gap between the handle piece and the forehand rubber. The reverse rubber (I'd actually leave it off unless you really do want to play RPB), I don't know. Two sheets of rubber makes the racket heavy, if you aren't going to use it, leave it off and you save a ton of weight, which is better for regular penhold play. Or you could put a sheet of OX long pips on the reverse side.

For the last 2-3 sessions I've been playing regularly with the Tornado/Yinhe 9000 bat - the Red Dragon/Octopus bat is looking to be a bag-sitter. The Rakza 7 is getting a little old, I could boost it again and keep using it but I think it's time to retire it and put something else on that blade.

Iskandar


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