| OOAK Table Tennis Forum https://ooakforum.com/ |
|
| Throw angle and arc trajectory https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=26286 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Obi-wan [ 03 Aug 2014, 19:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Throw angle and arc trajectory |
What is throw angle and what is high or low arc produced by TT rubber? Is arc the same thing as throw angle or something different? Name some of high throw rubbers and some low throw rubbers. Which rubbers have high arc trajectory and which are low trajectory rubbers? What does it all mean when you play? Who should use high throw rubbers, who should use low throw rubbers? What are the benefits of low arc and what are the benefits of high arc trajectory? I have some findings of my own but it would be better to hear from more experienced players or TT equipment enthusiasts... |
|
| Author: | keme [ 03 Aug 2014, 21:11 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
Obi-wan wrote: What is throw angle and what is high or low arc produced by TT rubber? Please share your findings. We are in this boat together...Is arc the same thing as throw angle or something different? Name some of high throw rubbers and some low throw rubbers. Which rubbers have high arc trajectory and which are low trajectory rubbers? What does it all mean when you play? Who should use high throw rubbers, who should use low throw rubbers? What are the benefits of low arc and what are the benefits of high arc trajectory? I have some findings of my own but it would be better to hear from more experienced players or TT equipment enthusiasts... My interpretation and findings: While there is some correlation between high throw and high arc, they are not exactly the same. Throw angle: Ball's exit angle from the bat, caused by "spin strokes". IOW, the bat's capacity to "drag the ball sideways" with thin/brush strokes. Arc: High arc means that the rubber enables higher spin/speed ratio, so you can make more spin without the ball going faster, giving the ball trajectory a tighter curve. In play: High arc means that it's easier to return safely with topspin, using the spin to bend the trajectory over the net and down on the other side. Low arc (or "long trajectory") gives a less safe but more dangerous return (harder to get to, and to attack, because flatter trajectory gives lower bounce). High throw means that energy from lateral movement (thin strokes, and incoming spin) is better conserved. This enables you to use the opponent's speed/spin as an energy source (i.e. you use less energy, passive blocks are faster), but you are also more vulnerable to incoming spin. |
|
| Author: | Spartan62 [ 04 Aug 2014, 20:51 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
i don't think a lot of people understand these newer terms like like arc and throw. so. they are used to mean (slightly) different things. Here is one approach that maybe a bit naive... lol The "arc" of a ball is prpoprtional to its spin once it leaves the bat. We usually mean topsin in this context but sidespin balls also "arc". No doubt, a slow ball will arc more than a fast ball with the same rotation. So is arc already taken care of by a combination of spin and speed parameters? What is "throw", at higher impact speeds, rubber/sponge thickness/hardness and pimple geometry etc. can affect the tangential rebound force but none so much as topsheet friction, especailly on a brush stroke which is how throw is usually described. So, in reality a high throw rubber will be a high friction rubber, so throw is in line with friction and is nothing new in itself. |
|
| Author: | manofan [ 05 Aug 2014, 09:54 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
Spartan62 wrote: So, in reality a high throw rubber will be a high friction rubber, so throw is in line with friction and is nothing new in itself. Hurricane 2 is a low trow rubber with a high friction topsheet... IDK, but to me trow and arc are the same, just another comercial name. Tenergy 05 is well know for it high thorw. Calibra is a low throw rubber. High throw for spin oriented players. low throw for blokers and flat hitter. |
|
| Author: | carbonman [ 06 Aug 2014, 13:21 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
I think people consider Hurricane to be low throw because the sponge is so dead. On some shots I actually find it high throw - for example, if I swing fast against a block the first few invariably go long due to the extra grip of the topsheet (compared to a non-tacky rubber i normally use). However if I do a passive block (for example) the ball does not go deep due to the dead sponge. In general I would say that a grippy/tacky topsheet will create high throw/good arc unless the sponge is dead enough to retard the process. I actually think talking of throw is a waste of time. Far more meaningful and precise to talk of speed (of sponge and/or blade) and grip of topsheet. |
|
| Author: | Der_Echte [ 06 Aug 2014, 14:01 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
Keme correctly describes the throw angle - simple the angle the ball leaves the bat given the same ball for two different bats. Arc is the flight of the ball. Given the same strike of the ball with either bat... A high arc means the ball travels higher and drops on table. A low arc means the ball travels lower and hits the table. Generally, the high arc rubbers have the higher degree of spin. Yet, even a low arc rubber (like Calibra) can have exteme spin at the high end of speed on fast loops while keeping a low flight path. Such a rubber could have the same amount of spin as a shot by a player using T05, but the shot by the player with Calibra can make the speed faster to result in a ball with more extreme speed than T05 and around the same amount of spin. To confuse things even more, a player who hits the ball a little flatter than the classic spinner can make a very low arc shot loaded with spin, a similar trajectory as Calibra, but this happens if the player knows how to strike the ball differently in a manner to produce this shot. This is warping the definition a bit which assumes each player is striking the same ball the same way. But then again, it is FUN to warp the laws of Physics and TT !!! In a BH heavy topspin rally close to table or step away, some pros suddenly take away the spin and hit it flat and FAST, but with enough spin to land it. That shot has way less spin and if you do not see it, your counter attack shot will land in the net, or even before it! Ironically, Koreans call this shot a PUSH haha. |
|
| Author: | Der_Echte [ 06 Aug 2014, 14:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
carbon man further illustrates the LULZ of a throw or arc rating by explaining that the same rubber can and will have different throw angles in different situations. It is further LULZ when a manufacturer or huge distributor assigns speed or spin ratings to a rubber when it is impossible to accurately say such and such rubber performs this level of speed and spin, because the truth is a rubber will perform differently on different balls and different shots on those different balls. That is why some players value a rubber that is LINEAR, meaning they get proportionally what they put into it. However, many players accept this definition as a measure of the speed component, but we can apply it to spin or speed/spin as well. |
|
| Author: | Spartan62 [ 06 Aug 2014, 23:29 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
I don't comprehend how one ball has high topspin and a big arc and aonother with the same spin can have a low arc, unless the speed is different. more topspin = more arc... more speed = less arc.. So isn't the case that a flatter ball loaded with spin is also very fast... We can't beat the physics. |
|
| Author: | Baal [ 07 Aug 2014, 00:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
I have been playing for a very long time and at a decent level and I'm not sure I can tell the difference between high arc and high throw or some of the other terms I read. I am not sure that what other people are saying here is wrong, but I know that I am not that discerning (but I have decades of experience and have tried a huge number of rubbers and blades). I know that Tenergy 05 for example is not that fast compared to many other rubbers these days, but to keep the ball on the table I use a more closed racket angle when looping or driving than I would with quite a few other offensive rubbers. I also know T05 generates a lot of spin. But trying to extract all of these parameters is, for me at least, really hard. So when I play with a different rubber I really am only able to decide two things: If I like its performance and if I like its feel. To figure that out, I try to address the following questions, which usually are easy to understand and have clear answers: Can I keep the ball on the table? Is my attack effective and is there an acceptable margin for error? By effective attack I ask, does my opponent have trouble keeping some of my heavier loops on the table and judging their spin correctly, and can my faster drives penetrate their defense? How often do I make unforced errors by missing long attempting those shots? Can I serve, return serve, and effectively play short or off-speed balls and flicks? Is blocking effective and comfortable and again, how much margin for error is there, and if I don't have my racket angle perfect am I hosed or is there a chance the ball goes on anyway? Is the racket angle I have to use for a given shot make sense to my intuitions honed over decades of play and is it comfortable? There are always tradeoffs, you have to keep that in mind. The advantage is that none of these questions uses words or phrases of uncertain meaning, which means if I use them in a review, other people will understand. I can also say whether the rubber feels hard or soft (and if a blade is stiff or flexible). Trying to extract more of the physics going on is pretty much impossible to me as a player. And even if I could do it confidently (which I can't), would other people know what I am saying if I use some of these terms? Maybe not. So when I review equipment in the future, I promise to avoid using terms like throw angle, although I have been guilty of using them in the past. |
|
| Author: | manofan [ 07 Aug 2014, 01:51 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
I can see the diference in thses terms only by the time of it... Like these: The moment the ball leaves the rubber is trhow The trajectory of the ball till reach the table the other side is Arc... So they are the same to me, just diferent times , if it leaves high from the rubber, it will have a high arc, if it leaves low form the rubber, it will have a flatt trajectory... something like that |
|
| Author: | haggisv [ 07 Aug 2014, 20:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Throw angle and arc trajectory |
carbonman wrote: I think people consider Hurricane to be low throw because the sponge is so dead. On some shots I actually find it high throw - for example, if I swing fast against a block the first few invariably go long due to the extra grip of the topsheet (compared to a non-tacky rubber i normally use). However if I do a passive block (for example) the ball does not go deep due to the dead sponge. In general I would say that a grippy/tacky topsheet will create high throw/good arc unless the sponge is dead enough to retard the process. I would agree with that... I think people refer to H2 being low throw mainly because it's considerably lower than H3, but I also find it quite high when you brush the ball. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC + 9:30 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|