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 Post subject: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2020, 07:52 
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I see Rakza Z has been launched, has anyone got their hands on it yet? I see it’s at TT11 but not part of their buy four deal (yet). Advertised as having a sticky top sheet.


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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 23 May 2021, 20:14 
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Review of Rakza Z:

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 21:08 
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I found this web page:

https://www.yasaka.se/productcategory/rubbers-compare/

The Rakza Z page:

https://www.yasaka.se/products/rakza-z/

Where exactly does it say that Rakza Z is tacky? It does say "Grip", why would something with Grip not have Spin (like Rakza 7 would have)? I notice it's got harder sponge (5) than all the other Rakzas. I wonder if Rakza X/Rakza X Soft might not be similar, with softer sponge. Rakza X has "Grip/Speed" while Rakza Z has only "Grip" - maybe the harder sponge makes it slower. So why does Rakza X Soft not be even faster, but has "Grip/Control" instead of "Grip/Speed"?? I suppose this new "NSS" means "tacky.

There's also this:

https://www.yasaka.se/rubbers-tech/rakza-line/

Image

Reminiscent of what you find in Butterfly advertising for Tenergy, with 05 having the best "Arc". But... but... if Rakza 7 has "maximum spin", why does Rakza Z cause the ball to arc more? Surely more spin = more arc? Or is Rakza 7 simply slower than Rakza 7, so the ball arcs more? Weird.

Hmmmm.... I LOVE table tennis rubber ad copy - parsing it is enough to drive anyone insane.. :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I'll succumb to the temptation and buy a sheet of... well, something.. :lol: :lol: :lol: (Probably X Soft.)

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 21:38 
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The following is a quote from the Yasaka Rakza Z Product page - https://www.yasaka.se/products/rakza-z/

Quote:
RAKZA Z is the new addition to the highly successful RAKZA series of YASAKA rubbers. For the first time in the RAKZA series, the top sheet has stickiness by employing a new production method. The result is a surface with exceptional grip, enabling phenomenal spin.


Doesn't tacky mean somewhat sticky to touch ?


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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 23:04 
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I think the confusing thing is they talk about being "sticky" and having "grip" in the same line. What I'm getting out of this is, instead of being what we would consider a "grippy" rubber, it is tacky, more like a Chinese style of top sheet. The tack provides the "grip".

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2022, 23:54 
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Just tried Rakza z out briefly on balsa 2.5,it was part of my black Friday order at tt11
Can confirm that it is tacky,not H3 tacky but plenty enough,the topsheet is softer than H3 .
This is faster than t05 and the trajectory is longer with a nice kick after the bounce and surprised me and my mate!,the arc is not as pronounced as t05 but the throw angle is equal or even higher.Nice flat spinny pushes for serve return,spin seems similar to t05 when serving so not as much as H3 imo.
Pleasantly surprised at the speed straight from the packet.I am currently boosting to soften the sponge to my liking.

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 14:01 
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dazzler wrote:
Just tried Rakza z out briefly on balsa 2.5,it was part of my black Friday order at tt11
Can confirm that it is tacky,not H3 tacky but plenty enough,the topsheet is softer than H3 .
This is faster than t05 and the trajectory is longer with a nice kick after the bounce and surprised me and my mate!,the arc is not as pronounced as t05 but the throw angle is equal or even higher.Nice flat spinny pushes for serve return,spin seems similar to t05 when serving so not as much as H3 imo.
Pleasantly surprised at the speed straight from the packet.I am currently boosting to soften the sponge to my liking.


So, is it one of those Hybrid rubbers ?


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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2022, 19:56 
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Ootbs if you mean Chinese tacky topsheet over esn type sponge the answer is not quite.
The topsheet reminds me of cj8000 tackiness and feel,so softer and less tack compared to usual Chinese,dunno if its ESN sponge Yasaka calls it powersponge.Its a great option if you want tacky and power on a def blade and if you like high throw angle,this is high quality by Yasaka

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2022, 01:58 
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Can't help but wonder how they go about manufacturing these rubbers, and what the planning process behind this product was.

Did Yasaka for example specifically go out to engineer a spinnier, higher throw rubber in the Rakza range that was also tacky because their marketing department thought there was an unmet demand?

Or - as I sometimes hypothesise - did they just say at one point "Gee - I wonder if its its worth making this stuff tacky as well?" and then give it a try, only to discover that a higher throw angle + higher spin off the table was the outcome... (and then retroactively claim that this was their aim all along?)

Part of me wants to believe its the former... but having worked in advertising in a previous life, I know perfectly well just how often the answer actually leans towards the latter. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2022, 02:04 
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iskandar taib wrote:

[...]

Hmmmm.... I LOVE table tennis rubber ad copy - parsing it is enough to drive anyone insane.. :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I'll succumb to the temptation and buy a sheet of... well, something.. :lol: :lol: :lol: (Probably X Soft.)

Iskandar


Yeah, me too... As someone who used to write copy for a living, its my formerly professional opinion that TT brands would have to be at the very tippy top of the scale when it comes to sprouting completely spurious rubbish/gibberish/bull-twaddle in their ads (mind you a good portion of that would probably be due to some deliberately bad English translations) :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2022, 03:48 
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Wakkibatty wrote:
Can't help but wonder how they go about manufacturing these rubbers, and what the planning process behind this product was.

Did Yasaka for example specifically go out to engineer a spinnier, higher throw rubber in the Rakza range that was also tacky because their marketing department thought there was an unmet demand?

Or - as I sometimes hypothesise - did they just say at one point "Gee - I wonder if its its worth making this stuff tacky as well?" and then give it a try, only to discover that a higher throw angle + higher spin off the table was the outcome... (and then retroactively claim that this was their aim all along?)



I don't think it was Yasaka per se - it was ESN. They're the ones with the manufacturing facilities, testing labs, etc. and they're the ones who actually design the rubbers. At some point someone (at Butterfly/Daiki? Or ESN?) decided to see what would happen if they made a boosted tacky rubber - after all, the Chinese like those, and they do pretty well, right? They tested it in a lab, distributed sheets to the likes of Herr Boll and Herr Ovtcharov, they liked it, and so Dignics 09C went on the market. ESN saw it was selling like hot cakes (I might have gotten the two companies switched in who saw what when) and decided to give it a shot. So they developed a range of tacky rubbers which they could make with a range of sponges. And then they send whispers to the marketing departments of their OEM clients - Yasaka, Donic, Xiom, Tibhar.... pssst.. We've got something new you might be interested in. You see, every year, each of these companies MUST introduce something new. If they don't people forget about them and they lose market share. But they can't retire old rubbers either, that gets people mad at them. That's why their collective catalog of rubbers approaches the size of phone books (btw Gen X'ers might ask.. "What the heck is a phone book..?" ). And that's why you'll probably find many rubbers that are in essence identical across brands, varying in small details. Which makes me wonder - is there a tacky Evolution yet?

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2022, 13:36 
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I've always wondered - Does ESN manufacture, just the Topsheet (Rubber), or does it even make the Sponge ? Take XIOM Tensors, for example.. The topsheet, being a Tensor is obviously made by ESN .. But, what about their Carbo-Sponge .. ? Is that a XIOM technology, and who produces the Sponge ?


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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2022, 15:28 
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iskandar taib wrote:

I don't think it was Yasaka per se - it was ESN. They're the ones with the manufacturing facilities, testing labs, etc. and they're the ones who actually design the rubbers. At some point someone (at Butterfly/Daiki? Or ESN?) decided to see what would happen if they made a boosted tacky rubber - after all, the Chinese like those, and they do pretty well, right? They tested it in a lab, distributed sheets to the likes of Herr Boll and Herr Ovtcharov, they liked it, and so Dignics 09C went on the market. ESN saw it was selling like hot cakes (I might have gotten the two companies switched in who saw what when) and decided to give it a shot. So they developed a range of tacky rubbers which they could make with a range of sponges. And then they send whispers to the marketing departments of their OEM clients - Yasaka, Donic, Xiom, Tibhar.... pssst.. We've got something new you might be interested in. You see, every year, each of these companies MUST introduce something new. If they don't people forget about them and they lose market share. But they can't retire old rubbers either, that gets people mad at them. That's why their collective catalog of rubbers approaches the size of phone books (btw Gen X'ers might ask.. "What the heck is a phone book..?" ). And that's why you'll probably find many rubbers that are in essence identical across brands, varying in small details. Which makes me wonder - is there a tacky Evolution yet?

Iskandar


Oh I completely agree with you that TT rubber manufacture and marketing is both cyclically-driven and largely reactive. :) :) Leaving aside those very few rubbers out there that actually stand out as being unique, IMO there's only comparatively small product differences that actually exist between most individual inverted rubbers in the market anyway (either within one brand's individual SKU list, or else across all brands in a particular segment). The fact that - just like LCD video panels - these rubbers are all largely manufactured under license by a tiny number of factories only adds to all their homogeny.

This also explains why so many product claims and marketing copy for individual rubbers are soaked in puffery and gibberish. In its simplest terms, very few of these rubbers can make any unique claims about their performance. They're all just tiny variations around the same central theme, with nothing to really make any one rubber stand out - so copywriters are forced to write large amounts of complete nonsense about the product's features, as its the only way left to you to promote the product legally.

There are huge penalties under law for making false claims about your product in an advertisement... but if your adverts contain nothing but puffery and meaningless nonsense which nobody can accurately comprehend or measure, then you can't be sued for misleading advertising ("No rubber gives your drives more "ommph power", epic forwardness or dynamic hyper-graduated explosive flight that the blah-blah-blah rubber in max sponge" .... I mean really! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: )

I'm just amazed that all these TT brands out there don't realise the traps they've created for themselves here and try to fight their way out of it via positioning their products or brands better. The more variants you release of a rubber, the more than each new variant cannibalises the market share of other rubbers in the range - you don't attract any new customers through brand extension, you just dilute the market share of your best selling products (..just how many classic 729 top-sheet variants does the world actually need? :rofl: :rofl: ).

I suspect TT companies compensate by not bothering to measure the market share of any one individual rubber anymore, and merely ask questions like "How is the Rakza line of products performing, compared to the Mark V line?" Trying to break down sales figures any further than that is a recipe for disaster. :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2022, 03:36 
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ootbs wrote:
I've always wondered - Does ESN manufacture, just the Topsheet (Rubber), or does it even make the Sponge ? Take XIOM Tensors, for example.. The topsheet, being a Tensor is obviously made by ESN .. But, what about their Carbo-Sponge .. ? Is that a XIOM technology, and who produces the Sponge ?


Yeah, ESN makes their own sponge. They own the "Tensor" trademark and logo, and that other one ("BIOS", I think, which prompted all of those Chinese copycat "Biotech" etc. labels). They've been aggressively marketing it, too - "Tensor" rubbers are better than "non-Tensor" ones, make a better "sound", etc.. Their OEM clients, of course, add their own labels. "Carbo-Sponge" is probably one of those, who knows what it actually means. If that rubber has the Tensor logo on it it's got ESN's Tensor sponge. There are a few brands that probably use Tensor sponge but don't use the logo (or don't want to pay to use the logo) - Gewo, for instance. And Yasaka. And possibly Tibhar, in their Evolution line. I used to think Evolution was not ESN - the sheets are 1cm longer (like Japanese sheets), they don't say where they were made, etc. but when ITTF changed the labeling rules I've heard they now say "Made in Germany" (or "Made in the EU"?) on the package.

There is another "ESN" in Japan, called Daiki - if you look at their web site, they claim Butterfly (Tamasu), Yasaka (Yamato Takkyu) and Nittaku (Nippon Takkyu) as clients. Butterfly might still make some of their own rubbers but I'll bet they farm off at least some of them (Sriver, Bryce, etc.) to Daiki (and farm off the really cheap stuff - Yuki, Wakaba, Addoy - to factories in China). They make Karis for Nexy (this is how we heard about them), and they might even have made Evolution for Tibhar in the past, or at least, components of Evolution.

In China? I know of three large outfits that make their own rubbers, and very likely OEM for others as well - 729, DHS and Yinhe. There are probably one or two more OEMs without a name, and maybe a couple of smaller factories. I know Gambler makes use of an OEM in China, while the new Oh-Toro sponge comes from Japan. They USED to use 729 to make Reflectoid, but had a bad experience with that, so they probably aren't using them any more. I suspect the factory that was making the "old technology", super sticky 999 rubbers (that had leather-like sponge and where the topsheet would liquefy after 2-3 years and make a mess) has gone belly up - the "Three Nine" brand of rubbers has disappeared, and I wonder if Globe 999 is still available (they could actually have their own really tiny factory that didn't go out of business that was separate).

Fascinating as all this is.. I suppose trade secrets are meant to be trade secrets, some of them are more secret than others, and I don't begrudge them that. ESN's no big secret, though, it's in plain sight. If it says "Made in Germany" or "Made in the EU" there's only one rubber factory in the EU.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: New Rakza version
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2022, 03:44 
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Speaking of Gambler - it might be worth trying, if you live in the US, their "new" Volt-M and Volt-T rubbers (they've actually been out for at least a year by now). Volt-T is tacky with a (hard) Japanese sponge, and would be analogous to Rakza Z and Dignics 09C (just a lot cheaper than either). Volt-M is non-tacky, with softer sponge. I think they're meant to be used as a forehand-backhand combo - the Chinese setup would be (insanely boosted) Hurricane 3 on the forehand and Tenergy 05 on the backhand, and I think this is what prompted the development of the likes of Dignics 09C and Rakza Z - they're meant to be used as forehand rubbers with something non-tacky on the backhand.

Iskandar


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