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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 22:49 
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This is very, very surprising. I have tried battle 1 (albeit breifly) and battle 2 (extensively) and outlaw (extensively). While I will agree outlaw seems somewhat fragile, battle is absolutely nothing like it. I think topspinschuss must hit the ball very, very, very hard. Unless there is boosting going on I do not understand this.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 23:28 
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vanjr wrote:
I think topspinschuss must hit the ball very, very, very hard.


He does hit the ball (all heavy top spins) very, very hard, and on the same spot in every stroke.
I once brought in a very small paddles (2" x 3") with glued on spiny rubbers to the club and challenged topspinschuss, this young man can top spin with that little paddle on the first stroke and more. amazing! :up:


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 06:08 
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vanjr wrote:
This is very, very surprising. I have tried battle 1 (albeit breifly) and battle 2 (extensively) and outlaw (extensively). While I will agree outlaw seems somewhat fragile, battle is absolutely nothing like it. I think topspinschuss must hit the ball very, very, very hard. Unless there is boosting going on I do not understand this.


There was no tuning involved and I used water based glue (tear mender). If you ever get Battle 1 again try just pulling the topsheet off of the sponge. It happens almost without effort..at least on mine. Battle I is actually *more* fragile than the current Outlaw...and about as fragile as the Outlaw 6 years ago. In any case, ages ago as a teen in Germany I was about probably 2500 level, so my loop can still be at that level (or slightly lower) even if my footwork and consistency put me at around 2200 right now. I started practicing again (and losing weight), though, so hopefully I can at least get over 2300 or possibly 2400+ relatively soon! :) There is a guy in the club who must be at most 1800...(if that..probably closer to 1700) who also bubbles Outlaw regularly..although it seems to take him much longer to do so (maybe a month and half plus). So, it's not just a problem with people who have hard strokes.

But still...I think it's unacceptable that these rubber makers seem to make rubbers that eventually bubble. If you buy a cheapo Butterfly Flextra rubber (some places sell it for $17) it will practically *never* bubble...no matter how hard you hit it. This is really bad strategy for these rubber makers. You *want* better players to adopt your rubbers so that the lower rated players emulate them. You don't want to just market low-manufacturing quality crap (although still with high-quality playing characteristics) to low level players hoping that their strokes aren't strong enough to expose the low manufacturing quality in your rubbers.

In any case...I got a refund for the Outlaw/Battle I from Tom/Zeropong. His response to the bubbling was similar to his response to the Outlaw over the years:

"I'm sorry that you had that bubble with the new sheet we sent you! We have not encountered any problems with the Battle 1 yet."

I have a feeling that the concerns of relatively higher level players are quietly brushed under the carpet in hopes that the information about the low manufacturing quality does not spread. It's almost like: "It's your fault that you bubbled this rubber because your stroke is too strong/hard." The problem is that it eventually does...because I can guarantee you that most people who can actually loop (and I mean any loop) *will* bubble the Battle I (or the Outlaw) given how badly glued the topsheet was to the sponge. I may actually demonstrate that with a video of me easily pulling off the topsheet from the sponge one of these days. In any case..Mark V it is then.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 06:51 
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The only other thing I wonder about is the shipping from the US to I presume Australia and if the package was in really cold or hot environmental conditions. The only time I have had sheets bobble was a Chinese rubber that was shipped from China to the USA. Well except one sheet of outlaw years ago.
Lesson for me is I probably need to hit harder:). Maybe for you is go with another brand or even no chinese stuff?


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 09:41 
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Nope, doesn't apply. I live in the US, it only took two days to get here. As for Chinese stuff...I'm just about ready to give up. I wasn't trying to play Chinese "european/japanese" style rubbers to be cheap...I actually like their playing characteristics more than Tenergy or Bluefire or similar rubbers. I would gladly pay more if were assured that the rubbers I'm paying for are high quality. Paying $20 for a rubber like Battle 1 that will bubble pretty much immediately is unacceptable...especially if I can get a Mark V from Japan for $23. It would be unacceptable even if it bubbled in a few days or weeks pretty much every time. The worst thing that can happen is to find yourself in a match with a bubbled rubber. It totally messes up everything.

The only other rubber that may be interesting for me try is Air Illumina, but, of course, now I am gun shy and afraid that it, too, will bubble. Is Cole part of this forum? Can he chime in? Should I maybe post this question in a separate thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 11:49 
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Air is made by dawei, I think to a higher standard. At least most of the time. I haven't had any problems like that since air tried tuning (big mistake) several years ago now.

AssassinS is the more outlaw-like offering. Substantially faster, firmer topsheet

I don't usually post here although I should. I had to remake my old account to post. I followed your mytt link here.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 12:20 
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Thanks for the info, Cole! I may give AssassinS a shot then one of these days...but, as I said, I'm a bit gun shy at this point. Maybe if someone has it locally I may give it a shot. So no reports of any bubbles or topsheet separating so far? What sponge hardness do you carry? It doesn't say on your website.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2015, 21:25 
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cole_ely wrote:
Air is made by dawei, I think to a higher standard. At least most of the time. I haven't had any problems like that since air tried tuning (big mistake) several years ago now.

AssassinS is the more outlaw-like offering. Substantially faster, firmer topsheet

I don't usually post here although I should. I had to remake my old account to post. I followed your mytt link here.

Thanks for chipping in Cole, and welcome back! :rock: :rock: :rock:

AssassinS was discussed here, and seems to get some good feedback:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=27806&start=15

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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2015, 23:39 
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topspinschuss wrote:
vanjr wrote:
This is very, very surprising. I have tried battle 1 (albeit breifly) and battle 2 (extensively) and outlaw (extensively). While I will agree outlaw seems somewhat fragile, battle is absolutely nothing like it. I think topspinschuss must hit the ball very, very, very hard. Unless there is boosting going on I do not understand this.


There was no tuning involved and I used water based glue (tear mender). If you ever get Battle 1 again try just pulling the topsheet off of the sponge. It happens almost without effort..at least on mine. Battle I is actually *more* fragile than the current Outlaw...and about as fragile as the Outlaw 6 years ago. In any case, ages ago as a teen in Germany I was about probably 2500 level, so my loop can still be at that level (or slightly lower) even if my footwork and consistency put me at around 2200 right now. I started practicing again (and losing weight), though, so hopefully I can at least get over 2300 or possibly 2400+ relatively soon! :) There is a guy in the club who must be at most 1800...(if that..probably closer to 1700) who also bubbles Outlaw regularly..although it seems to take him much longer to do so (maybe a month and half plus). So, it's not just a problem with people who have hard strokes.

But still...I think it's unacceptable that these rubber makers seem to make rubbers that eventually bubble. If you buy a cheapo Butterfly Flextra rubber (some places sell it for $17) it will practically *never* bubble...no matter how hard you hit it. This is really bad strategy for these rubber makers. You *want* better players to adopt your rubbers so that the lower rated players emulate them. You don't want to just market low-manufacturing quality crap (although still with high-quality playing characteristics) to low level players hoping that their strokes aren't strong enough to expose the low manufacturing quality in your rubbers.

In any case...I got a refund for the Outlaw/Battle I from Tom/Zeropong. His response to the bubbling was similar to his response to the Outlaw over the years:

"I'm sorry that you had that bubble with the new sheet we sent you! We have not encountered any problems with the Battle 1 yet."

I have a feeling that the concerns of relatively higher level players are quietly brushed under the carpet in hopes that the information about the low manufacturing quality does not spread. It's almost like: "It's your fault that you bubbled this rubber because your stroke is too strong/hard." The problem is that it eventually does...because I can guarantee you that most people who can actually loop (and I mean any loop) *will* bubble the Battle I (or the Outlaw) given how badly glued the topsheet was to the sponge. I may actually demonstrate that with a video of me easily pulling off the topsheet from the sponge one of these days. In any case..Mark V it is then.



I just wanted to clarify that we are by no means trying to brush anyone's concerns with this rubber aside. We honestly did not know this was a problem until it was brought to our attention with this case. That said, have already contacted our supplier regarding this bubbling problem. I apologize if my reply to your email seemed abrupt, as I did not mean it that way at all. As far as Outlaw is concerned it it is not delamination or a defect in the glue process, simply that top sheet will break, specifically the pips under the top sheet will sheer off in very few cases, in these cases, as was in your case, we offer a replacement - then when you were not happy with that we gave you a refund. The vast majority of players use Outlaw to its full life, disregarding it only when it wears out over the course of months. If anyone else is having problems with this (or any product) purchased from Zeropong, we absolutely want to know about it and will do our best to work with you to resolve the issue - just email us with your Order ID at [email protected]! Thanks!

~ Stephanie (Zeropong Office Manager)


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 01:06 
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Please don't overlook the previous post from Zeropong. ^

I'm glad we have performance extremes - Hurricane 2, Tackiness Chop, Reflectoid, Outlaw - to learn from. I have played with all of those and I don't recall ever breaking a pip, myself. I used rubber cement on those but I've never used booster.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 05:40 
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zeropong wrote:
I just wanted to clarify that we are by no means trying to brush anyone's concerns with this rubber aside. We honestly did not know this was a problem until it was brought to our attention with this case. That said, have already contacted our supplier regarding this bubbling problem. I apologize if my reply to your email seemed abrupt, as I did not mean it that way at all. As far as Outlaw is concerned it it is not delamination or a defect in the glue process, simply that top sheet will break, specifically the pips under the top sheet will sheer off in very few cases, in these cases, as was in your case, we offer a replacement - then when you were not happy with that we gave you a refund. The vast majority of players use Outlaw to its full life, disregarding it only when it wears out over the course of months. If anyone else is having problems with this (or any product) purchased from Zeropong, we absolutely want to know about it and will do our best to work with you to resolve the issue - just email us with your Order ID at [email protected]! Thanks!

~ Stephanie (Zeropong Office Manager)


Hi Stephanie!

Don't get me wrong. I think you guys offer excellent customer service, fast shipping and very fast replies to emails. I'm actually a happy customer service-wise. And, honestly, I was surprised about the 729 Battle I issues, as the couple 729-08 rubbers I had purchased before from you guys were solidly glued and there was no way to pull that topsheet off the sponge (and apparently no way to bubble it either). I still have my old 729-08s and they are as tacky as the first day I bought them 3-5 years ago (they were under a protection sheet of course). So...I was very surprised. As for my comment about the concerns of higher level players...I guess that was just my frustration about not being able to play with one of my most favorite rubbers (Outlaw) for now over 6 years. After I ordered the newest pair of outlaws from you guys, and people noticing in the club I was playing with it, more and more people came forward and told me me that they love the rubber but that their outlaw bubbles. That's the main reason people stop playing with it. And we're not talking about high level players here...it's mostly people in the 1700-2000 range that are bubbling these rubbers...not nearly as fast as I do, but it happens. There is a 1500-1700 level player who loves Outlaw...but also bubbles it regularly. Maybe every month or two. He just quietly keeps ordering more. Apparently he accepted that "that is just the way this rubber is." The topsheet has become *significantly* better over the years..more grippy, durable and barely a mark on it after a few weeks of play, so it's really frustrating that the pip-breakage issue is still there. (Yes, I can confirm that the topsheet is very solidly glued to the sponge...it's just that the pips are fragile).

My comment above served as a suggestion, too. Imagine if this rubber didn't bubble randomly within days or weeks of purchase (and lots of times in the middle of a tournament/match/roundrobin etc. and relatively higher level players adopted it (say...2200+ level...but even 2000+ would serve the same purpose). We all know that lower level players constantly ask higher level players about what they play...that would create a HUGE interest in Outlaw in my opinion. Great for business. Great for everyone. And people would be willing to pay more than 14 dollars per sheet without the pip-breakage issues and higher level players playing with it. Same applies to the 729 rubbers. There are actually players like me who prefer the "hybrid chinese-euro" style rubbers over the Tenergies and Bluefires out there. I know you guys have been trying to solve the pip breakage issue without changing the good characteristics of Outlaw, but I guess my post above was my desire for you guys to finally succeed after 6+ years. Would benefit everyone...most of all your bottom line. People like me are ready and willing to promote the hell out of your rubbers for "free" after all. :) (Addendum: It's not just lower level players that ask what I'm playing...I've had plenty of 2100-2300+ players ask me what I'm playing with after losing to me and my "el cheapo" setup).


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 04:15 
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The topsheet of Battle 1 is fragile like Outlaw and the weakest part of Battle rubber is the sponge that is not elastic like a few German rubbers I had tried before. But my 729 Battle 1 bought at late June from ttdd.de is glued so strongly that it is impossible to dissemble topsheet from sponge without sponge parts left on the topsheet.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 04:55 
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Is outlaw or battle the most T05-like rubber they sell? By T05 I mean high-throw and grippy surface. Butterfly rubber prices are crazy so if this stuff works 3/4 as well it's worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 23:51 
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irenic wrote:
Is outlaw or battle the most T05-like rubber they sell? By T05 I mean high-throw and grippy surface. Butterfly rubber prices are crazy so if this stuff works 3/4 as well it's worth it.

IMHO they are more like T64, but sure they are not like T05 at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Gambler outlaw
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2016, 05:55 
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What modern rubbers can substitute Gambler Outlaw with its properties:
1) hard but lightweight;
2) fast but linear (without catapult).

I can afford high price, but I prefer to avoid minor brands that hard to get and with the risk of discontinued rubbers.


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