OOAK Table Tennis Forum

the most deceptive shot in table tennis that i have found is a SLOW no spin chop....

when someone launches a shot at you and it comes back slower then expected most people assume that it is loaded with spin....but if you can make a slow shot have no spin...it causes havoc....

i try to keep all my chops the same speed regardless of spin unless i am following up with a forehand

this is why i think koji designed feint long III and P4 with a very slow sponge so one could return spin and no spin with the same pace as one another....

Tried chopping with a sponge few days ago and I didn't have to adjust chopping technique so much, however OX pips are much more forgiving when chopping, you can even do a passive stroke from a distance and still give much backspin back... Short game and control are very different though...



I assume this is especially the case with grippy pips with high spin generating capacity. What I found with the palio in ox is that it's hard to give a no spin chop because it generates so much reversal of its own. Nevertheless, you can give some backspin variation with it, but there will always be some backspin when bringing back loops.

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this is the case with short pips....and ever so slightly with a very few select long pips......you cant manipulate spin enough with long pips enough to build a game upon....just heavy heavy backspin

What do you think happens to that equation when you drop the SP (or more likely a lower friction SP/MP like Pluto, Peacekeeper, Valor Premier, etc.) down to either OX or 0.6? Particularly chopping control, and variation/usefulness?

I've played mostly with OX LP throughout, but don't care about disturb/wobble at all and usually find the reversal frustrating on my end.
I would love to have an easy SP/inverted-like push so I never have to twiddle for it, and the ability to start with good underspin off any dead ball, so between the two I can waste no time getting in and staying in a spinny, longer range Hou kind of game (still then needs to chop very well once there of course). I also chop more horizontal for what its worth.

Grippy LP like P4 and FL3 in 0.5 (and heavier 1.0) still seem like they would be hard to push with and create underspin off dead with, and therefore require twiddling.
Grippy LP like P1R and Cropcircles in OX, similar issues.
Thick sponge SP feels out of my league (and would be too heavy for me anyway on MPS which is oh so nice for that FH).
Low friction SP/MP in OX or 0.6???
Full on SP like 802, but in 0.6???

Wat do?

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USATT 1700 ··· 11/02/2013 ◄ ПЕШ

short pips chopping....the same thing as inverted chopping.... although this isn't exactly what happens, think of it as having two parts....the initial part of your swing is controlling the spin (movement, and angle and body), and the end part is how much spin is on the shot, (wrist movement down or forward etc)

with long pips there is no spin reduction , its just brushing the ball and making sure the ball keeps spinning at the maximum rate....

therefore, thin sponge on long pips is not necessarily a hindrance.

with short pips, you need thicker sponge in order to control the spin and thicker sponge to add maximum spin with your wrist...

although this is possible with thinner sponge and ox, it is much more effective and controllable with more sponge...

similar to how looping into the sponge with inverted is easier with max as it creates more spin.
this is different from long pips when there is no spin reduction

I really like hearing about how better players subtly "kill" or take off much of the incoming spin. One of our 2 club Div 1 aces is a J-Pen player who prefers to play with an old-azz Yasaka Carbon J-Pen with an ancient Yasaka SP (Extend) with a medium sponge, say around 1.5 and this dude simply can put the brakes on your loops,both spin and the the depth on the return. He gets so many points from that in a match, he must be permanantly happy for life. He used to be an elite TT athlete in middle school at the same area and time and level as Ryu Seung Min (think, this was when he waz 12, an elite junior), but somehow left the sport and didnt come back to it until 3-4 years ago only at the amature level.

Seeing how spin is killed and manipulated is facinating and worthy of repeated hearing... at least in my crappy opinion. Your discussions are not at all ignored in the least by even fraud amature 2x inverted attack happy players like me.

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i love the spin manipulation discussions...

as I start to play against much higher people, changing spin on a chops is essential, but unfortunately a good player can watch your wrist motion and notice no spin....

I love watching how high level players try to disguise no spin with body motion...

ding song with extremely short strokes

hou yingchao with side spin

wu yang by stamping her foot

joo se hyuk lets it drop beneath the table so they cant see his forehand chop

chen xinhua has strokes that are very wobbly and also short.

its interesting for sure....

This is indeed an interesting topic. I have ben trying myself to BH chop with almost the same motion but not using the wrist to snap in that extra spin in the end, but instead move the bat a little straight towards the table. That I try to make a "less spin chop" but it is very difficult to keep the ball low and at normal length with that stroke. However, it is easier to do it with P4 than with 1.6 mm DTecS (go figure ).
What other techniques is available for us lower class choppers?

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i know i don't disguise my no spin chops....my body is the same but the only thing that changes is my wrist....but if my opponent is focused it is quite easy to see...

i know if I put 3 really heavy chops on the table in a row, and then throw out a no spin, even though an opponent would know that its a no spin, its very difficult to change your body position to go more forward after lifting three heavy chops.

I am getting curious of TSP Spinpips Chop 2 with slow n' soft sponge. Only thing that bothers me is the difference in feel and sensitivity to incomming spin. I like the soft feel of P-4. How would you describe your transition to sp from lp when it comes to teturning services and pushing over the table? Can you trick your opponent easy with sp as is possible with lp (making low pushes with and witthout back spin). I now you mostly used lp in ox, but how would you describe the difference between P1-r and Spectol?
I have realised I play more and more close to the table, seeking attacking opportunity with FH. I really love to chop away from the table but I also like attacking. I wonder what Spinpips would offer that P-4 don't and vice versa ???

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this is how i always visualize it....

popular modern chopping long pips by Japanese companies excel in two areas....heavy heavy back spin on the chop against a loop, and being able to push spin and no spin.

chopping against a loop has one feeling....brush the ball for as long as you can with as much power is you can at generally the same angle every time.

pushing has two different feelings....one with more brush and one with more hit based on the amount of wrist you use....this will yield two different spins with different motion....

with the curl series or feint series, if you find that all your pushes have no spin, you need to get to the ball sooner and use more power, because these modern long pips can put quite a bit of spin on the push....no enough to dump them into the net if they are expecting it, but enough to confuse them and make them net it if they know the basics of long pips...

Short pips....

chopping against loops has two feelings....hard as you can with a strong wrist brush with distinctly different chopping angles to adjust for incoming spin (unlike long pips). Yields a ball with spin equal to your own power

and hard as you can with NO wrist with distinctly different chopping angles to adjust for incoming spin. Yields a no spin ball.

as far as pushing goes....heavy spin is basically your only option....

you can change the push to no spin but its very obvious....the trajectory changes as well as your angle of impact and speed of the ball...

usually resulting in the ball being crushed past you....

so basically with short pips you want to chop (the variation is here)

and long pips you want to push (the variation is here)

serve receive long pips are better because you can manipulate the spin on your receive....


but as far as feeling goes....p4 and ssp chop 2 will be very different

also on iruiru.com it says that p4 has a 5 degree softer sponge then ssp chop 2...

oh and side note i havent used spectol for 2 months haha i have used the original ssp

Thanks! I will stick with P-4 a while, I like pushing and fooling my opponents with the amount of spin that P-4 can generate .

Time to change your signature

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IMO P-4 is VERY effective close to the table as well as off the table.

I agree, just that I come from double inverted and would like to attack more with my BH, and I such big time at twiddeling . But I will keep my setup, I've had it more than half a year, and that is by far the longest time since I turned to the dark side . I'll keep practicing pushes, pushes with inverted, attacks with pips and returning serves with pips and by twiddeling.

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leatherback,

First off, great thread. This one is fun to read through.

Sorry if you've already addressed this but do you know why they all tend to play the short pips, smashing style? Do you think it was just this particular school? Or do you think this is common place and there's something to be said with this approach.

I currently play jpen and have only tried tacky inverted rubbers. What comes naturally to me is driving more so than looping (although I can but it's harder ex: looping backspin) and I'm just wondering if this short pips smashing/driving game would suit me better. I must admit the thought of not having my topsheet being so effected by incoming spin does sound interesting.

Any light you can shed would be great. Thanks.

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