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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2013, 07:50 
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Instead of going to sleep I am reading cstt's ambitious article on basic shake hand strokes. Very good. Highly recommended, read it at least once a year :)
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=17947
I really like ttEgde's videos, very high quality and sharp clean pictures helping you. Very good light and backgrounds and Will has very good techniques, especiallyBH (which caught my interest this eve, apart from some red wine and Pearl Jam :) )

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 00:25 
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Def-attack wrote:
leatherback wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Just a quick reflection after today's session. Correct balance is a key factor when executing a BH adtr twiddeling. I tend to be on the move away from the table at those times, need to change that vehen I decide to ttwiddle I need to stay at the table.
Another thing: I decide to twiddle at the same time I execute my shot. This means if I push with no spin it is at that point I decide that I am going to twiddle before the next shot. I don't decide that when I see what kind of shot my opponent is making. Good or bad? Don't know yet but I've noticed that this is very common even amongst pro's.
I filmed a drill, will post it later, now sleep...



i would say that this is bad...

if your opponent is watching your racket (which when playing a defender i would do 100% of the time) and you twiddle before i have touched the ball...

I would FOR SURE avoid your backhand.....

i would say you should decide after your opponent has touched the ball...then you know placement speed and spin before you commit...

Yes, I agree, this would be ideal... But I have a mile to walk before I reach that. I will try to wait a second before I twiddle in drills, to ser if that can help.
Leatherback, do you twiddle? Did you do it more when you used lp ox? At what situations?


i twiddle in two circumstances.

high balls with no spin....easy put aways as inverted provides way more power then LP.

and if i run up to push or loop late and my opponent is perfectly ready to counter with power and i have no time to retreat, i put myself into a stance slightly favouring a forehand chop and twiddles so if they go to my forehand i can perform a "chop block" maneuver with my forehand, and backhand i can punch block with the inverted...]

i win about....25% of these points but its at least a percentage


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 05:48 
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I had a chance to look at some more of your videos and found your BH drive with inverted as well as the flip is
looking good. I think if you are working a deliberate flip or a random flip is important. I am chatting with Teddy on the
phone as we speak. It is deliberate but might seem random. I would say stay with the program of twiddleing and throw
some radom stuff in there off service. I find that after looking at your vids....80% attack seems the best oftion (IMHO)

please send more vis...love to see them

Peace GIG
:Chop: :Chop:

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 07:57 
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michiganbob54 wrote:
I had a chance to look at some more of your videos and found your BH drive with inverted as well as the flip is
looking good. I think if you are working a deliberate flip or a random flip is important. I am chatting with Teddy on the
phone as we speak. It is deliberate but might seem random. I would say stay with the program of twiddleing and throw
some radom stuff in there off service. I find that after looking at your vids....80% attack seems the best oftion (IMHO)

please send more vis...love to see them

Peace GIG
:Chop: :Chop:

I'm not sure I follow, what do you mean with "random" and "deliberate"? Do you mean if I plan to flip/attack with inverted already when I make my stroke before that to be "deliberate"?
If that's the case I go for random, but I need to practice in patterns first.
How do you mean 80% attack?
I will absolutely make more vids, I will try other drills and film my bh technique and how I handle twkddeling (timing, at what points and so on). And I will study Filus, analyse at what moments he twiddles for attacks.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 08:43 
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@Bob and Teddy: thanks for looking at my vids and for sharing your thoughts and observations. I realize I tend to be less polite when writing posts with my phone instead ofmy computer. I should use my computer, I write better with that...

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 19:27 
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I think it is confusing how Bob placed my thoughts on twiddling.

I think great twiddlers will find the right places to twiddle.
For mortals like myself and some others we have combinations that we use to make twiddling more manageable.

I actually learned to twiddle because of Greg Letts online coaching website that I was subscribing to.
He gave many ideas including twiddling in mid toss of the opponents serve.

I actually only have 3 circumstances that I twiddle to use inverted on my backhand.

1. serve return when the opponent sends the ball to my bh where I want to flip or backhand loop. Often the banana flip is useful. I also will occasionally push the serve back with the inverted if I am in a bad position or as a variation, but only to get my forehand loop into play. Once I use the inverted the pips are coming back immediately to the backhand unless I absolutely know the next shot is coming back to the same place. Also using pips on the forehand as a variation is confusing to the opponent.

2. As leatherback pointed out when coming back to the table after chopping and the opponent pushes to draw you back in. This is only if I need to reset the point or regroup. More likely than not I'll come back and attack with my forehand whenever possible assuming I am fast enough to get to an attacking position. Also If I have less time and I have twiddled to the inverted to chop or push and a backhand loop presents itself I will take it.

3. The only other reason for me to twiddle to the inverted on my backhand is if I know I'm gonna get smashed towards my backhand side because I find that a lob or fish from the backhand is easier for me than chopping a smash. I'm most likely going to lose the point so a lob lets me at least have a chance.

I'm not sure you want to randomly twiddle your racket. The goal is to control the point and occasionally greatness happens by surprise, but that can only happen if the point dictates that you twiddle outside your normal patterns. I recommend that you come up with situations in which you want to twiddle in a point and drill those situations with a playing partner. Also I sometimes experiment with new patterns or situations with lower level players. For example I will play an entire game with my long pips on my forehand and inverted on the backhand just to get used to being not in my best position.

I'm attempting to give you a look into the reasons I twiddle without giving you too many random thoughts or ideas. Hope that is useful to you. Also sorry for the confusion.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 23:21 
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I agree with Teddy. Was not the best time write a post correctly talk on the phone. Watch the grandkids trash my table tennis area, and then have to take the dog out. I dont multi task as well when those things happen. Lol. But i will get on the computer when kids are off it. And rethink my statemenpeace and quite needed.

Help......Gig :sweat: :devil: :headbang:

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New blade set-up... Nittaku Monophonic with Dawie 388d-1 ox and Big slam max ( really like this one) down to FH rubber selections--I like it better than talon
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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2013, 07:04 
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Ok Bob and Teddy, now I understand what you meant (I think). I am not going very random yet. I will twiddle at those moments Teddy poonted out (I already do 1 and 2 but not attacking with inverted yet). And I will add a few more. And I will simulate those situations at drill to learn how to perform and how to detect oppurtunitys. Just that I have decided to twiddle is a big step for me, since I have thought It would take to long to master in relation to what's in it for me.
Good tip from Greg there about deciding at mid toss of opponents serve. I willtry that.

I studied a few matches of Filus. He rarely twiddles before he knows what his opponent is going to do. But once (against Steger) I noticed that he chopped a no spin and directly after got into position for a FH counter on the expected high loop from Steger. But Steger managed to place the high loop to Filus body and won the point. Maybe Steger has a very good split vision or maybe he sould have placed the ball there anyway :?: .

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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2013, 07:08 
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I'm using Tapatalk2 in my iPhone. But I don't get the pictore or the keyboard to turn 90 degrees when I turn my phone for landscape layout. Anyone knows why? I don't like the small keyboard but I likeTapatalk in all other aspects.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013, 06:51 
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Had a great session tonight, almost 2½ hours :whew: . First 30 min with basic footwork like Falkenberger (did with only inverted... worked ok but I fumbled with the bat sometimes). Then basic short serve-attack etc. Last 1 ½ hrs wi played matches best of 3 sets. I played 5 but only won one... There were two I should have won but I lost focus.
At practice I can twiddle but at matches I forget all about it. I scream to myself after a point "I should have twiddled!!!" when I have made a hit with my pips. I just can't seem to get it in my head to do it. I just need to keep working on it in drills and it will start comming to me in matches as well.
I filmed 4 of the matches. Perhaps I'll post them tomorrow. Time for bed soon... Next session is on Thursday if everthing goes as planned....

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013, 18:21 
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Here are last nights matches. Later I will analyse these to see what kind of situations occured where I should have twiddled but didn't... Then I will try to create some drills to capture these moments in practice.

First match against a fellow who has been away from TT for some two months. I normally win against him (he is not good agasint lp) but he played more focused and disciplined last night. And I made some misstakes (mostly when lifting the ball back and missed the table due to old sidespin that the ball still carried).


Next match was against my coach. I snatch a set from him now and then but it was a long time ago I won a match against him. He is very good againt SP, MP and LP. He also has a way of always placing the ball where you don't want it. I get caught off balance, with all weight on the wrong foot etc. And he blocks good with a twist, making the ball curve or shoot away like a rocket (why I misses the ball on second attack many times).The way to beat him is to play fast and aggressive, and place the ball to his FH-side or to his body.


Third match was against a fellow who I now have a little more easy to beat. Some weeks ago I had major problems with his sloww spinny loops. But since I changed FH rubber to a fresh, less sticky and a little softer version (I bought a National version with labeled hardness from Eacheng) I can counter his top spins a lot easier. Also, he did not play good last night.
At 5:40 I made last nights only proper twiddeling :) . Too bad I got so happy with the attack that I completely forgot to continue playing :oops: .


Last match was aginst my fellow defender. Some nice points but still I feel slow when I face him, I need to step around faster. And I relay need to be able to twiddle. Also, I need to develop a working strategy agasint him. I just play without thinking. I have beaten him a few times (but he is better now) and the way to do it is playing soft and slow, not feeding him spin. And when the opprtunity occurs - a fast attack to his body or out of reach. But it is difficult because he places the ball very well.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013, 22:11 
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I am still working through your last set of videos-but a couple of questions about your purpose for twiddling.
Why do you twiddle:
a. To confuse your opponent
b. To allow you to attack a certain ball
c. To allow you to defend a certain ball (or your BH or FH side)
d. To return serve
e. To serve

It seems to me that how often you twiddle and when you twiddle is determined by your answer to the above question. We all may have different reasons for twiddling. We may even have several reasons, but analysis of Why may help you discover When and How often.

Example. If you do the Falkenburg of BH-BH, FH (from BH corner) to BH, FH to BH and then finally BH to BH that the last ball will be hit with your LP chopping if you are working on defense, but may be w inverted if you are in all out attack mode.


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013, 22:38 
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vanjr wrote:
I am still working through your last set of videos-but a couple of questions about your purpose for twiddling.
Why do you twiddle:
a. To confuse your opponent
b. To allow you to attack a certain ball
c. To allow you to defend a certain ball (or your BH or FH side)
d. To return serve
e. To serve

It seems to me that how often you twiddle and when you twiddle is determined by your answer to the above question. We all may have different reasons for twiddling. We may even have several reasons, but analysis of Why may help you discover When and How often.

Example. If you do the Falkenburg of BH-BH, FH (from BH corner) to BH, FH to BH and then finally BH to BH that the last ball will be hit with your LP chopping if you are working on defense, but may be w inverted if you are in all out attack mode.


I do the Falkenberger to speed up my legs, and to speed up my twiddeling and be able to twidle "on the move". I can do Falkenberger without twiddeling and instead attack with LP, that works well also.

I want to twiddle to serve BH, to return serves with inverted on BH (these two I already do). Sometimes to defend when someone pushes back a chop towards my BH. This I can also do. Why I focus more on twiddeling now is to be able to block and attack with BH on loose shots towards BH, or on slow loops to my BH. And also, and this I think is the main reason for this new focus on twiddeling, when someone pushes back my lp-push to their BH, and place the ball far to my BH so that I can't step around.
In match 2 in my post above I do a lo of pushing with my pips on his serves, and to his BH. Second point in that match I twiddeled because I thought he would return to my BH, but he placed it to my FH (he had no idea that I had twiddeled) and I was gone :oops: ... I had decided to twiddle too early, and that I need to work on.

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 05:00 
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Def-attack wrote:
Here are last nights matches. Later I will analyse these to see what kind of situations occured where I should have twiddled but didn't... Then I will try to create some drills to capture these moments in practice.

First match against a fellow who has been away from TT for some two months. I normally win against him (he is not good agasint lp) but he played more focused and disciplined last night. And I made some misstakes (mostly when lifting the ball back and missed the table due to old sidespin that the ball still carried).



I looked a little closer at this match and made these conclusions about where I should have twiddled:

0:57 A very lame chop on a high and slow ball, a BH smash with inverted would have been better (but a little difficult perhaps).
4:39 Ball to my body, should have twiddled (2 points after each other, but the second one, directly after serving, would have been difficult to manage)
5:27 I did twiddle but I should have also attacked
5:35 The perfect example where I should have twiddled - when I get a slow and surprising return more far to my BH than expected. I was in position for a FH attack but the ball almost missed the table instead. And I missed a great opportunity to kill it.

7:13 Classic example, first a bad chop/push and then a slow and high return from my opponent who did not dare to attack (he rarely does with BH) and then I should have killded it! But instead I tried to place it in his far FH corner. This happens a lot (although I usually doesn't miss the whole table like that).

7:40 He returns my long serve to my body and I do nothing creative with that point.
8:12 Tried a LP attack with BH, should have twiddled instead.
9:53 A very lame chop from me, perhaps I was thinking about attacking. A BH loop with inverted might have been good but a better chop would have been better.

It happes often that I attack with FH and get a return to my BH, and have to make a lame chop. I am not sure this is a good time to twiddle, perhaps better to try to get in position and make a better chop. But I will try to make a drill for this to test. And the "classic example" from above is something I have already mentioned. I need to fix this, it happens a lot when I meed player that is not from my club. I'll see what I can do...

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 06:23 
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Def-attack wrote:
It happes often that I attack with FH and get a return to my BH, and have to make a lame chop. I am not sure this is a good time to twiddle, perhaps better to try to get in position and make a better chop. But I will try to make a drill for this to test. And the "classic example" from above is something I have already mentioned. I need to fix this, it happens a lot when I meed player that is not from my club. I'll see what I can do...


If you don't mind I would like to give you a little tip: Twiddling is add firepower to your game, never for defensive purposes. This means you'd want to assume the ball will come back to your BH after your FH loop, and you want to attack it from the BH side as strongly as your FH. As we are not young anymore, it's much faster to twiddle and attack hard from our BH than to move our feet like Xu Xin to use our FH. So the key thing is BE DETERMINED when you twiddle. Make up your mind that you want to hit the next ball with a BH loop by twiddling. If the ball comes to the "wrong" side, do not fret. Simply chop-block it back calmly with LP on your FH side. You should practice BH looping and punching combined with FH chop-blocking close to the table as often as you can until you get very comfortable with the sequence. You can also simply "guide" the ball back with LP on your FH instead of chop-blocking. Once you can do that your opponents will be thinking twice before returning your FH attacks to your BH side. :)


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