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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2015, 11:21 
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pgpg wrote:
Question of the day: what an aspiring chopper should do about hitters? Players in this category whack any reasonably high ball into a corner you can not reach with disturbing accuracy. 3 of my last 4 losses came against them (OK, two losses came from the same guy, but still).

I assume simple answer is 'don't give them anything to hit', but anything beyond that?

While at the club today, finally broke first seamless ball (Nexy) in a normal, non-spectacular way. I did lose one before (Xushaofa) when my opponent hit it with an edge of the blade and ball pretty much disintegrated in flight. This time it just started to sound funny and we were able to see a crack - just like with celluloid.


One way to deal with hitters is to keep your chops long/deep toward their end line.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2015, 11:47 
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pgpg wrote:
Question of the day: what an aspiring chopper should do about hitters? Players in this category whack any reasonably high ball into a corner you can not reach with disturbing accuracy. 3 of my last 4 losses came against them (OK, two losses came from the same guy, but still).

I assume simple answer is 'don't give them anything to hit', but anything beyond that?

While at the club today, finally broke first seamless ball (Nexy) in a normal, non-spectacular way. I did lose one before (Xushaofa) when my opponent hit it with an edge of the blade and ball pretty much disintegrated in flight. This time it just started to sound funny and we were able to see a crack - just like with celluloid.


Follow the rules of ball quality to make more trouble for them: spin, speed, power (combination of the first 2), placement, deception.

Deep balls always give you time. Low balls mean that they can't hit as hard without the training. Depending on the hitter, heavier backspin may be effective. Making him move may also be.

The problem with hitters is that they may not give you enough spin to work with if they are using pips especially. So you may be forced to do a few things with your inverted side to get the right matchup.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2015, 10:20 
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This particular post is more or less triggered by the thread below, the one about differences and similarities between "Modern Defense" and "Allround" playing styles:

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=27526

I think it's fair to say that I originally wanted to chop as much as I could, so that's how I ended up with VKM setup in my signature. And I think it's great. However, pretty soon you realize that spectacular loop-chop rallies are not that frequent and you have to attack quite a bit to get points, especially on FH. Especially lately I find that I almost never chop on FH - instead it's more of block, loop, smash, fish etc., and looping/smashing with it feels a bit weird. Watched a bit of TT on youtube again and saw that at high levels there is some FH chopping, but not that much really.

Which made me think: hypothetically speaking, if I practically never chop on FH - why do I need slow defensive blade then? Would I be better off with my old W6 with LP on BH and something more conventional on FH? In other words - normal inverted player on FH, but with LP on BH to receive, block and chop - I think it worked fine for BH chopping couple of months back. What exactly is this style then? It is tempting to give it a shot - no new equipment needed :)

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2015, 17:02 
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pgpg wrote:
This particular post is more or less triggered by the thread below, the one about differences and similarities between "Modern Defense" and "Allround" playing styles:

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=27526

I think it's fair to say that I originally wanted to chop as much as I could, so that's how I ended up with VKM setup in my signature. And I think it's great. However, pretty soon you realize that spectacular loop-chop rallies are not that frequent and you have to attack quite a bit to get points, especially on FH. Especially lately I find that I almost never chop on FH - instead it's more of block, loop, smash, fish etc., and looping/smashing with it feels a bit weird. Watched a bit of TT on youtube again and saw that at high levels there is some FH chopping, but not that much really.

Which made me think: hypothetically speaking, if I practically never chop on FH - why do I need slow defensive blade then? Would I be better off with my old W6 with LP on BH and something more conventional on FH? In other words - normal inverted player on FH, but with LP on BH to receive, block and chop - I think it worked fine for BH chopping couple of months back. What exactly is this style then? It is tempting to give it a shot - no new equipment needed :)

I have more or less given up FH chopping. I can do it but never seem to fit it into my game. Counterattacks and fishing is more natural. And therefore I change to faster fh rubber now.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2015, 17:30 
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Def-attack wrote:
I have more or less given up FH chopping. I can do it but never seem to fit it into my game. Counterattacks and fishing is more natural. And therefore I change to faster fh rubber now.

chopping fh is more effective than fishing or lobs
good chop (low and with high spin) or strong counterloop can take control over rally to your favor and u will be on attacking position
while fishing usually will not provide this, it will not change your posiotion, u still will be on defensive side

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2015, 23:37 
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garbol wrote:
chopping fh is more effective than fishing or lobs
good chop (low and with high spin) or strong counterloop can take control over rally to your favor and u will be on attacking position
while fishing usually will not provide this, it will not change your posiotion, u still will be on defensive side


I only agree partially with this. it's better to chop than to fish when you get a low spin ball in your FH. However, once the spin builds up, it's harder and harder to do a quality FH chop (because you need to overcome the rotation of the ball). Fishing is very viable then (if it has good placement and a lot of spin, especially sidespin).


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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2015, 23:38 
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Def-attack wrote:
I have more or less given up FH chopping. I can do it but never seem to fit it into my game. Counterattacks and fishing is more natural. And therefore I change to faster fh rubber now.


I managed to get it into my game, but it took me awhile.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 00:56 
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Def-attack wrote:
...
I have more or less given up FH chopping. I can do it but never seem to fit it into my game. Counterattacks and fishing is more natural. And therefore I change to faster fh rubber now.


Were you originally playing with inverted on both sides? If so, I can see why old habit of being aggressive on FH would carry over.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 02:02 
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pgpg wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
...
I have more or less given up FH chopping. I can do it but never seem to fit it into my game. Counterattacks and fishing is more natural. And therefore I change to faster fh rubber now.


Were you originally playing with inverted on both sides? If so, I can see why old habit of being aggressive on FH would carry over.

Yes. But I have been using pips on BH longer than I used inverted. But I think I just am too offensive oriented on FH. And also, I rarely comes into position to chop on FH due to fast attacks (not enough time) that mostly are above waist height when they reach me. And the size of my court rarely allows me to back away further away. Also, it is great fun to loop back a loop :)

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 02:48 
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Def-attack wrote:
Yes. But I have been using pips on BH longer than I used inverted. But I think I just am too offensive oriented on FH. And also, I rarely comes into position to chop on FH due to fast attacks (not enough time) that mostly are above waist height when they reach me. And the size of my court rarely allows me to back away further away. Also, it is great fun to loop back a loop :)


I think the size of a court matters a lot. I luckily play at two clubs that have a lot of room to go back. But when I play in a smaller court, it breaks my game. Luckily most clubs here have good playing venues. That's why I decided recently not to play anymore on those small courts. It's a different matter when your own club doesn't have enough room. You might want to mention this in the board of your club.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 03:04 
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When you say 'smaller court' - how much space are we talking about? I guess distance between end of the table and the wall/barrier in the back would be the most relevant, right? I suspect our club is kind of in the middle - not too cramped, but not ITTF standard either, since I do remember running out of space once in a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 03:21 
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
I have more or less given up FH chopping. I can do it but never seem to fit it into my game. Counterattacks and fishing is more natural. And therefore I change to faster fh rubber now.


I managed to get it into my game, but it took me awhile.

for those spinny bals i twiddle and fh cop with LP (chen weixing do it as well sometimes)

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 03:48 
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garbol wrote:
...
for those spinny balls i twiddle and fh chop with LP (chen weixing do it as well sometimes)


I have to confess I am yet to make a successful FH chop with LP - every time I tried it went straight into the net. Doing fine (well, much better) on BH. I know it's a stroke/technique issue - just did not have time to focus on it. Still, I find it amusing :)

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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 03:55 
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pgpg wrote:
When you say 'smaller court' - how much space are we talking about? I guess distance between end of the table and the wall/barrier in the back would be the most relevant, right? I suspect our club is kind of in the middle - not too cramped, but not ITTF standard either, since I do remember running out of space once in a while.


It's indeed the distance between the table and the wall/barrier that's the most important, but hard to say exactly how much space. When you encounter a powerlooper (bu his loops still have an arc) and his loops hit the end line and you need to chop them at knee height: that's how much space I need.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen of chopping
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2015, 03:58 
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Yes. But I have been using pips on BH longer than I used inverted. But I think I just am too offensive oriented on FH. And also, I rarely comes into position to chop on FH due to fast attacks (not enough time) that mostly are above waist height when they reach me. And the size of my court rarely allows me to back away further away. Also, it is great fun to loop back a loop :)


I think the size of a court matters a lot. I luckily play at two clubs that have a lot of room to go back. But when I play in a smaller court, it breaks my game. Luckily most clubs here have good playing venues. That's why I decided recently not to play anymore on those small courts. It's a different matter when your own club doesn't have enough room. You might want to mention this in the board of your club.

I am the board... (sort of president)...

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