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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2019, 20:14 
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notfound123 wrote:
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

Not to derail your journey or anything.. but have you ever tried grippy LPs? If I recall correctly you used to be a P1R player. Spin at the table is the reason I switched to the rubber I use currently. It's not forgiving on receive, no wobble, and when I push, to my opponent it actually feels like a normal push more or less.. Not a SP expert here or anything like that, but I read in many reviews that FL3, P4 etc behave and play like a SP. Just a thought.


Yes, I did use 1,5mm P1-R for the last last couple of years (+- 5 years) and I liked it a lot, but the variety in the pushing department has become too poor I just don't find effective enough anymore.

I tried both FL3 and P4 in thickest sponge in the past. For pushing they distinctly felt like a LP to me, but it might be worth reconsidering to see the pushing department has more variety in it.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2019, 22:57 
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Have you ever tried twiddling to push? Do you think pushing with only one side (sp) is safer/easier/better? I've actually been considering coming back to LP to have easier time chopping while maintaining spinny pushes as I twiddle. Do you think it's too much hassle to learn twiddling?


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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2019, 23:50 
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Def-attack wrote:
Lorre wrote:
Danthespearton HQ wrote:
What differences do you feel there are between Spectol and 802? Which one is more grippy?


You'll have to ask DA or someone else. I'm currently still experimenting solely with the 802.
Spectol is softer and pips are a little wider and more conical. 802 has small, hard and grippy pips, more grippy than Spectol. If you push with 802 over the table you can generate a lot of spin. If you only uses the top of the pips with a light touch they are less grippy but I guess still more grippy than Spectol. I would say they differ as much as H3 and T05, two very different rubbers. Not better or worse, just very different.

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Thanks for the comparison. I'm using SSPC2 so I'm wondering how different/similar it is to Spectol and 802 as well.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 01:05 
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Lorre, this is crazy! You and I are on the same wavelength!

I also changed to Spectol 1.8, all for the same reasons. I absolutely love it...and it's slippery enough for emergency chops vs. other SPs. Unfortunately, I'm playing it on a standard sized blade (Joola Rossi emotion) complete with carbon, etc. However, I still find it quite nice. When I get the defensive sized version it will go on a Joo blade as well. I was debating putting it on the VKM till I saw DA's comment.

I keep loosing points when I attempt to attack with it (not used to it at all).

The guy who sold me the Spectol in the first place is also going to be selling me a defensive sized version. (Can't wait!)

As usual, the trade offs are that I tend to lose to new people I never lost to before, and beat people I never used to be able to defeat before. But I love being in charge of the spin in the rally, even if the results are (for now) about the same.

I still want to play more classic D, with lots more spin manipulation.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 04:46 
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Pure Luck wrote:
Have you ever tried twiddling to push? Do you think pushing with only one side (sp) is safer/easier/better? I've actually been considering coming back to LP to have easier time chopping while maintaining spinny pushes as I twiddle. Do you think it's too much hassle to learn twiddling?


I can twiddle and I can do it on command. I find pushing with inverted effective and I am able to push with no spin anf heavy backspin. However, I find it to be problematic under time pressure because there isn't enough time and cognitive capacity to do the twiddling. It's possible to twiddle for every stroke in a slow game, but for me it's not possible to do it in a fast game.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 04:49 
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Japsican wrote:
Lorre, this is crazy! You and I are on the same wavelength!

I also changed to Spectol 1.8, all for the same reasons. I absolutely love it...and it's slippery enough for emergency chops vs. other SPs. Unfortunately, I'm playing it on a standard sized blade (Joola Rossi emotion) complete with carbon, etc. However, I still find it quite nice. When I get the defensive sized version it will go on a Joo blade as well. I was debating putting it on the VKM till I saw DA's comment.

I keep loosing points when I attempt to attack with it (not used to it at all).

The guy who sold me the Spectol in the first place is also going to be selling me a defensive sized version. (Can't wait!)

As usual, the trade offs are that I tend to lose to new people I never lost to before, and beat people I never used to be able to defeat before. But I love being in charge of the spin in the rally, even if the results are (for now) about the same.

I still want to play more classic D, with lots more spin manipulation.


Yes, same wavelenght. :up: What do you mean with "a defensive sized version"?

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2019, 08:40 
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A sheet big enough to fit on an oversized chopping blade?

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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2019, 18:32 
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Dear friend Lorre,

I’m a little bit shocked to read this all. Going to SP coming from LP… :?:

And why not twidlling ? It is not easy to learn, but in tabletennis you have to dare twiddling, handle
fast, very fast. :D

What I learned in the years that I play tabletennis + arrival of plastic ball
I did a little bit of EJ… I did not buy every LP… but did a little bit of research.
The need i want in a BH rubber LP and where opponents miss in their shots: :devil:
- High reversal when chopping
- Good active chopblock, good backspin. Keeping ball short / low with passive block. (variation)
- Able to attack (back)spin, fast enough, low return / grip in a LP is usefull
- Able to attack when players play passive / you can twiddle also to your inverted
- Insensitive to spin (service return)
- Deception !!!!! :devil: :devil:
- Able to manipulate spin is a good extra
- Control isn’t that important to me, you can learn to control a pip by practice.

In which LP I found those things, not all the things but all in a good way:
thickness sponge depends on style

Tibhar Grass D Tecs OX / 0.5 / 1.2
Sauer und Troger Hellfire 0X
Dr Neubauer Aggressor 1.5 (MP or LP): for me a Universal MP / LP It took me 2 years to tame the beast. How do i get huge backspin or no spin ball in chop, how to attack fast, how to chopblock, how to counterhit,… You have to be 100% concentrated to play with it or else Aggressor plays with you... :lol:

There will be other LP that do the trick too but I only found these LP when doing EJ.

I stopped playing SP because I did not found what i was looking for in SP.

Maybe a short pip without sponge can be good for your ‘new style’:

Dr Evil OX
Ritc 802-1 OX
…..
You can chop from distance, And you can also stay at the table and learn to attack and push some strokes. But there is a little bit deception in too. Good at blocking too.

Or Maybe GlAnti

Nittaku Best Anti 1.8 : able to do it all but with not a lot of spin, for me personnally easy to play and able to slow the ball down, but in the aggressive style able to put pressure and attack + deception and it messes up opponent’s timing.
Armstrong New Anti 2.1 or 1.8: able to create good backspin in pushes for an anti / chopping, block and attack possible.

But I suggest you just stay with your style of LP, and learn to twiddle when the other player starts to be passive.

Or just use an other LP with high backspin, P1R in 1.5 isn’t enough anymore according to you, I knew that allready but the D Tecs 1.2 and Hellfire OX will bring you more and better backspin like you wanted. Learn to attack fast or slow with these guys when the opponents starts te be passive and it will bring you joy 8) :punch: .

If you stay with SP I wish you good luck my friend, hope you find a good alternative to become the player you want to be right now. Hopefully you can re-invent yourself. But I started with SP once in a while, but now I know what I really want :clap: And where I will stay for a while ;) Never forget who you really are, no matter what happened. :up:

Good luck Bro !


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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2019, 07:11 
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BJ, thx for the kind words and the support and friendship you've given me during the last couple of years. ;)

Even as a LP player I already wanted to be partly in the driving seat when it was about the returned spin from my racket, including pushes. P1-R was known to be able to vary the push quite considerably, including creating your own backspin. That's why I chose the 1,5mm version, not the 1,0mm version. I don't find this not the case anymore, certainly not for me. So anything less grippy than P1-R will not do.

It's not only rational why I want to change to SPs. There are rational arguments, no question about that, but it's something more, something emotional, something in extension of who I want to be, something in extension of who I quite frankly already am below the surface. Plus it's giving those who now look down on me as a (LP) player a taste of their own medicine while still being a junk player, while still being different, while still be the thing why they look down on me. I'm not losing my core, being defensive, but will gain an expression of another core, being a attacker - a relentless one - whenever I choose to be.

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2019, 05:41 
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Like I promised I'd do a weekly update of my progress. I played exclusively against recreational player R. Monday. He can keep the ball on the table, but that's it. Not much spin either. This time I had a lot more trouble chopping: not because of the emptiness in spin of his attacks - if they landed - but because my timing was off. When I started to chop when the ball was a bit lower everything landed on the table with enough spin to trouble him. My first chop is murderous: a lot of spin, including sidespin. I also found that hitting through spin was quite easy when your timing is right: the ball has to be at the peak of it's bounce.

Thursday I started against S. It seemed to me I start to get accustomed to the feeling of the SP. I felt at ease with how the PS feels and I felt like I couldn't miss a ball both attacking and defending. Playing doubles against her and F. (D4), a decent flat hitting player, with a recreational player felt like a breeze: you can decide to attack or defend whenever you want to - devastatingly so. I never felt we could lose the game. Both my FH and BH are very scary to come up against it seems. There's no safe place on the table anymore against my game.

First test to see how my SP deals with extreme spin was against F. (E4), an old defender. He plays with a thin inverted on the FH and SP on the BH. He can create a lot of backspin with his FH and empty balls with his BH. Hitting though his BH with my LP technique was a breeze. Hitting through his FH was another story. It worked on short balls, but on deep balls I had to take his backspin into account. So I had to lift the ball or chop it back. If I pivoted to my FH after hitting with my BH it was point over. I might want to open the angle of my paddle even more to hit through his backspin. Is this possible?

All in all I just find the game to be more fun and my opponents also seem to enjoy it more. I feel I have a lot more gears, especially when attacking. If I can chop against players of my own level or against a good looper and I can make that work, SP will be a keeper. Question will be then: what SP? Raw or cooked?

Yes, that's right. I delved into the kind of SPs during the short period of spare time I had last week. So 802 is cooked and Spectol is among a lot of MPs raw. Cooked is harder while raw is still flexible. I wonder what SPs beside Spectol are also raw? Not a lot I reckon.

Next week I'm having my first match, coming Tuesday, against players of my own level. I'm quite curious how that'll go. I predict it'll be a disaster, but you never know. I'll update the blog again next week and I'll respond quite fast to any given feedback. Feel free to comment in this blog: more than welcome to do so! :)

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2019, 07:19 
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Sounds like you are having fun! Great! I am not sure you have got it right about cooked and raw though, but I am not sure. Kees k ows, look at his threads :up:.

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PostPosted: 27 Oct 2019, 04:57 
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So... I trained this week two times and I also played my first game this week.

Monday I played mostly doubles and played for about five minutes against F. (D4) - the flat hitting player - again. I also had the opportunity to play against decent looper K. (E0). In doubles my opponents were F. - the same one - en G. (a recreational old player who's more than 80 years old). I played with E. (E6), an low-leveled old defender with LPs on his FH and anti on his BH. We lost the first game because of me missing my BH hits. However, we won the second and third game. Especially the third game was a breeze. I just hit through everything. Both F. and G. couldn't create enough spin or keep the ball low enough to keep me from hitting. If the ball came back, E. reset the point with his defense, giving me a new opportunity to hit them into oblivion. It was very scary. They even started to attack E. serves out of desperation. In the last game set 2 and 3 were both 11-3.

The five minutes against F. were interesting. Normally he just keeps giving me no spin pushes to my BH. He didn't do that now when he felt I just hit through them like a knife cuts through butter. He started to attack and we had attack defense rallies. He didn't win many, though. I could switch from attack to defense whenever I wanted. If I attacked it was quite devastating. I just saw him asking himself what was going on. :lol: After training he asked me if I changed anything. I said I changed to SPs. He was interested in my equipment. That's a first, because he couldn't stand me as a LP player. Just to show ye LP players are at least as good as regular players of the same level.

The exercise against K., him topspinning to my pips, gave me a good feeling. I was able to chop them back heavy. He missed a couple of them due to the sidespin. The backspin made him hit into the net if he didn't position correctly for the incoming ball. Sending back a float gave a fast low ball deep into the table that is very hard to not push high back and consequently be killed by a BH or FH hit.

Training on Thursday was only interesting because I played G. again. Remember I lost to her the first time I played with the SPs. This time my hitting was spot on. I played a set against her: 11-6 was the result. I just pushed heavy and then I float pushed one into her body. Her push came a bit too high. The rest is history. :lol:

I'm finally able to punish those who don't attack!!! :up: At least in a training situation...

It's still not the case in a real game. So Tuesday I opted to play in a team lower than my regular one. I had to play against D. (D6), T. (D6) en P. (E0).

I started against T. I lost 3-0 mostly due to nerves of being it my first game with SPs. It felt like my first time!... Playing a TT match, mind ye! :lol: My first 30 minutes or so, in training but more pronounced in a real game, are difficult: it's like I have to get used to the feeling and technique of the SP. After that it falls into place. In the game I made a lot of mistakes: the guy just didn't do a thing. I didn't dare to hit fully: I just lifted the ball like I did with my LPs and he hit them back hard if I placed them too easy. I made mistakes when pushing, although now I'm able to create actual backspin.

I won the game against D. The guy actually attacks. Well, at least he tried... He couldn't read the spin on the pips and also had trouble with my FH defense. So he started to push more, but I could turn that into attack by lifting the ball with the pips to his FH. He always took those balls when they were descending, kind of lobbing. Not a good idea when playing me... 3-1 was the result. I lost our previous encounter with 0-3.

I never lost to a classic defender! Until now. P. is a classical defender with a worn anti on his BH and an inverted on his FH. He mostly uses his BH, though. I won the first and lost the rest. I usually give defenders no spin balls with my LPs. I did the same thing with my SP: not a good idea. :lol: Those balls aren't disturbing or empty enough like with my LPs. I didn't dare to attack fully with my BH. And because now I'm able to create spin myself he actually was able to use my spin against me. They should ban those junk rubbers! :lol:

All in all I felt my strenghts were strenghtened using SPs, but my weaknesses were more exploited. I'm able to cover those in training by attacking those opponents who don't attack, but in a real game it's still quite difficult to pull that off. I believe I'll be able to, though.

I'm still using 802, although I still planning to try Spectol.

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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 23:08 
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Just out of curiosity: has it changed your service receive game a lot? If yes - how?


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PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 06:19 
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mart1nandersson wrote:
Just out of curiosity: has it changed your service receive game a lot? If yes - how?


Yes, it did. If I want to chop the ball, I need to take the ball later. However, if I want to attack the ball, it's much easier and more devastating to attack serves with little spin, no spin and topspin. It doesn't matter if these serves are deep, short or in between. I take those balls at the peak of the ball trajectory.

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PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 07:00 
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Here's my weekly update on my chopping journey with SPs. No games this week. I will be playing a game next week against players higher than my rating. I'm quite curious how that encounter will work out.

In short: it's an up and down affair, but I'm enjoying it. It's much, much harder to defend and attack with SPs than it is to defend with LPs and to attack with inverted. There are two modes with SPs: if you want to execute a defensive stroke, then you need to take the ball very late and rip that ball with your wirst - or not if you want to float a no spin chop - while simultaneously going forward. A bit like a loopdrive reversed. If you want to attack with the SPs, you need to take the ball at the height of the bounce and hit to the table. So as a modern defender you need to take one ball near it's lowest point, while the next one - if you want to attack that one - you need to take that one at it's peak. It's very energy consuming, but it's also very rewarding: the opponent doesn't know what's coming at him and what's coming at him is or loaded or fast. There's also no disturbing effect, unless the opponent doesn't have time to react. So you need to hit with full commitment.

So: an up and down affair. What I mean with that is the following. When I start training my body is already adjusted to the absence of my LP on my BH. However, my timing is always off in the beginning. I take the ball too high when chopping and I don't commit when hitting the ball. However, after 15 to 30 min. something changes. It's like a switch goes on. I take the ball lower when chopping and I go fully when hitting and at that moment I feel invincible.

I only had one interesting training partner this week: P. (C6), a player of my own level. He hits with his FH and hits/loops with his BH SP. He uses one of the more modern SPs. Playing with SPs myself now I know he can do a lot more with his SP than he's currently doing. It's even more clear than before his BH is his weaker side. But to keep things interesting I played to his FH exclusively. Again I started to chop the ball to early. Quite frustrating. And then it happened again. Switch on. I started to chop with consistency like with my LPs and when he pushed back I could just hit that ball or reset the rally, now with a heavy backspin ball when pushing.

Now I am attacking a lot more with my BH it's - according to some- again the pips that are the culprit of all my success. It's just funny how people blame their own shortcomings to the equipment of their opponents. Says a lot abouth them too.

As a final note: I hurt G. this week when playing doubles with him. I wanted to hit a winning FH, but as he's a very old guy his mobility isn't the best anymore, so he was in the way of my stroke. :rofl: I could just loosen my grip when I saw my stroke going at him, making the impact less painful. His elbow was torn up, though: a fresh flesh wound. Fortunately he was ok afterwards. That could have been a lot worse.

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