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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 03:30 
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I don't know if this is a scam or what, but this Elimation Extra Long rubber would appear from this playtest to be unreal.... What the hell is up with those sidespin chops? Surely long pips aren't capable of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXZsjYK5PcM&t=386s

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 13:21 
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No, that looks legit. But he is getting corkscrew spin instead of side, so it bounces more heavily to the side (which is basically a top spin ball going toward the green board at that point). I call that the chainsaw serve or chainsaw chop if you hit it off the table. Feels like pulling the chord on a chainsaw to start it up, just dragging up underneath the ball parallel to the table's end.

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 18:23 
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Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
To Lorre and Snow -- what were your experiences with using SP vs LP over the first few hits of the point?

Did you win more points with SP early on, since you could put heavy spin on right away... and with LP did you last longer, getting more points through extended chopping/pushing rallies?

For me... my games don't look anything like pro level! Neither are the players. I've only played a 2300+ rated player a few times in a tournament setting. And the first time, the guy kept looking at the score sheet wondering if there was a mistake on the matching :lol: he even asked the tournament officials about it :rofl:

Point being, I don't often face super-mega-power loopers going to crush every ball. Even at 2000-2200 level or so, there are still a lot of mistakes being made compared to the next tier up.

Now with the dinking style, the rallies can go on quite awhile. I mean... quite awhile! I oftentimes just win out of boredom and frustration on the opponent's part! Wanting to get the game over with so they just start hitting everything left and right, before storming off and telling everyone I suck. :rock:

Which is why I wonder if the SP would be worthwhile to learn over a longer period of time -- in the hope that my early game is more effective. Meaning I could bring about danger earlier on, instead of the dink dink dink, wait them out variety of games. Having said that, the OX LP offer me a huge crutch in terms of returning any ball. But it's just a dink ball return. I win through attrition and consistency, not on any great play or deception.


Yes, short pips can lead to shorter rallies for sure, one way or another.

My initial experience when first making the switch was that I'd have to play a couple of extra balls with long pips but would be less likely to make an error. Kind of standard, something we all know here I think.

Think things are different for me now with P1r and Hurricane. Points are maybe quicker than ever before. But that's because I'm aimimg to use the advantages of both to win points, which is force error or push with long pips and mop up with forehand.

I'm finding with P1r in 1.5mm most players will net the ball after 2-3 loops in succession. A couple of strong players I've hit with looped an average say of 2-7 in a row though. Either that or they push, which is an oppoertunity to hit. Very different to when using Feint Long 2, where felt that I would be in for some rallies. But part of that could be me just getting better at cutting the ball with long pips.

So my point here is maybe if you want to cut the rallies down, give your long pip but with sponge a long trial. As this thread uncovers perhaps, you only switch around who you find easier by going the short pip route, though against players who don't play with a lot of spin, short pips obviously have an advantage over long pips.

Don't know if they still make it, or if you've tried it, but Dr Evil, a short pip, would give you good control and reliability against heavy spin, but you have some access to spin manipulation. Lose out on reversal but if you're ending up in a lot of long rallies with ox long pips, maybe it's because opponents don't play with enough spin. So something like Dr Evil would give you options you don't hsve in those situations with ox long pips.

But I'm not really in a position to tell you what to do lol. I'm here too on this thread at the of the day battling my own indecisiveness on whether to stick with long pips or go the Spectol and co route. The problem for me is both sides have really strong positives, and you cant have both. So will always miss the other I think now, whichever I choose. Putting a lot of hope in Horizontal 55 then lol. I think for me it's not a case of P1r not working for me, but rather that I don't yet feel comfortable not being fully in control of what I'm doing. I can only reduce or speed up reversal with P1r, and while it seems to be effective, I would prefer I think to retain a little more control over spin.


Yeah, I think it all depends on who you lost to last :lol: :lol:

I have the super spinpips in .3 all the way up to 1.8 sponge thickness, so might glue on the .3 to give it a whirl. My biggest problem is not even off the table chopping, since I can use LP or SP about equal overall. It's over the table that bothers me! The OX LP style is so different compared to short pips or even grippy LP in thick sponges. Most of my points are lost doing serve return or botched pushes when using SP. With LP most anyone can do with me is try the long and dead serves hoping I hit a weak return. I nullify their usual spin tactics, and that alone messes up a lot of people. But then I don't really end up chopping much. It turns into me blocking at the table and cleaning up with the forehand -- or 'chopping' the ball and getting into those lengthy dink battles.

So with the LP, my pressure mainly comes from the forehand threat and sheer attrition. Though I don't like using my forehand, despite people telling me it's my best shot...

If you look at Elena Timina (very classical chopper, watched about 5 matches of hers recently and saw maybe 4-5 attacks across ALL of the games):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKE9gihHlcw

Probably seems boring to many... however, it's how I like to win! Whittle and whittle them down.

Goal would be to transfer the threat from my FH more over to my BH, through the usage of mixing up spins and not letting them relax against dink shots with the same spin - just done 15x in a row! It would take a pretty huge shift in my game to adjust the short, over the table play full time to SP though. So I'm wanting to hear of other experiences before investing my training time into that style. If it even works! Maybe that's just a load of crap, since I cannot even really find a classical SP chopper. All the ones I come across use LP or classic anti. Then I think, well they aren't using it because of the skill level they play against... and I'm not going to be facing consistent 2600+ level loopers! Does that balance out the abilities then - since the loopers here in the grand ol' USA are much weaker and perhaps LP aren't even needed.

I think my best bet, utilizing my actual strengths (not necessarily my favorite playstyle) would be a chen weixing style game -- BH chop and forehand loops/fishes. Or committing to a close to the table OX LP blocking and forehand clean up. The more I think about it the more idiotic I see myself, imagining some short pip chopper out there confusing and befuddling the other players... anytime someone hears or sees me talking about putting on short pips -- they have my permission to grab a sheet of max thickness short pips and just smack me across the face with it! :headbang: I could do a grippy LP with some sponge as a decent medium though. :lol:

These guys are similar to how I play now as far as the backhand style goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qFoEHxjiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgdfuPwJpz0

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 22:41 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Watered down in the sense that you can't force as many errors with those LP when compared to SP, where they have more grip so you dictate the variation. So it's like a lower friction short pip. More safety at the cost of less manipulation.

I know with those you can do fairly heavy sidespin chops and get the ball really arcing sideways. But not to the killer degree that a Hou type side chop gets. In fact, do even the pro LP choppers try the sidespin banana chops?

Maybe it's my technique with the sponged LP... even with 1.6mm sponge on the curl p4, it still seems like rather weak spin to me. I think I'm chopping heavy and hard, but the amount of spin does not reflect what my mental image is telling me :lol: :lol: What do you think about it? p4 vs short pip in spinning vs a dead ball?


SP are a lot better than P4 in spinning up a dead ball. P4 is better than most LPs, but not nearly as good as a SP in doing that. P4 still feels like a LP to me when it comes to that.

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 22:52 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
To Lorre and Snow -- what were your experiences with using SP vs LP over the first few hits of the point?

Did you win more points with SP early on, since you could put heavy spin on right away... and with LP did you last longer, getting more points through extended chopping/pushing rallies?


It depends. SP behave more like an inverted and the flight path appears more similar to that of an inverted. So it depends on how comfortable the opponent is in looping a push from inverted and looping/hitting a push from LP.

If they like both, chances are your LP will protect you more against a first good loop and will make the rally longer. If they like none, it will be a long game :lol: , but the game will be equally long, depending on your LP consistency against no spin and your SP attacking capabilities.

If they like to loop/hit a push coming from LP, but not from inverted, SP will make your game longer and better. If they like to loop a push coming from inverted, but not from LP, the LP game will be better.

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 22:57 
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Throwing an interesting question into the discussion: do you think it is possible to create a pip that has the best of both worlds? So in the long game having the control and reversal of LP, while in the short game having the control against no spin balls and spin manipulation options of SP?

I think it might be possible, but it hasn't been created yet. The closest calls in existence are LPs with thick sponge or SPs with thin sponge.

Do MPs fill in this gap? Does there exist a MP that strikes this thin cord?

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 23:51 
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Lorre wrote:
Throwing an interesting question into the discussion: do you think it is possible to create a pip that has the best of both worlds? So in the long game having the control and reversal of LP, while in the short game having the control against no spin balls and spin manipulation options of SP?

I think it might be possible, but it hasn't been created yet. The closest calls in existence are LPs with thick sponge or SPs with thin sponge.

Do MPs fill in this gap? Does there exist a MP that strikes this thin cord?


If such a rubber existed there'd be no need for long or short pips for chopping at a high level. I want this kind of rubber to exist, but I doubt any rubber currently ticks all these boxes. Of course, if someone knows otherwise, please point us all to this God pip!

I think it is possible to create such a rubber, in terms of traits. But would require some major evolution in rubber tech I'd imagine. Maybe I'm wrong.

I will add though thst I don't think reversal is a necessary ingredient. For me, the number one reason to use long pips is the forgiveness. The number one reason to use short pips is spin manipulation. Talking about choppers. What I really want to happen is for some rubber to truly blend those. If the rubber had reversal, surely it would counteract its ability to manipulate spin in short pip fashion. Plus, reversal obviously isn't as effective as switching between heavy and no spin. At least at higher levels. Well, actually even at lower levels providing you yourself can effectively vary the spin.

I think long pip forgiveness overrides its weakness against no spin balls, as not as challenging as it should be to return a flat opening strike. And then once you've chopped it back, with a good action, you can get a lot of backspin on your return. I'd say good luck to your opponent trying to flat hit thst ball again. Certainly with P1r in 1.5mm anyway. But still, I understand, it would be best to avoid it all together, having to chop such a strike. Which of course can be done with short pips.

P4 in 1.5mm would be the closest to this ideal rubber so far from what I've tried, if it weren't for soft sponge I think. I have control issues with soft sponge weirdly, while having good control with harder sponge. Possibly due to the technique developed playing with ox short pips for so long with nothing but hard wood underneath so learned to cushion the ball myself. Again, this is what I have in mind with Horizontal 55. So I'll be sure to give my two cents on it. Know you've tried it Lorre, but hearing contrasting things about it so need to see for myself.

I think my biggest issue with P1r is just thst I don't like the feeling of not being in full control of what's happening and it limits my approach and options. But it does do what it does extremely well. Never had a rubber thst sets up attacks so well. My fear with it is being forced into a situation where all I can do it continue to get the ball back. Its not as if you can mix things up much, certainly not without twiddling. @skilless slapper, I don't think I would have your patience lol.

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 01:54 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
No, that looks legit. But he is getting corkscrew spin instead of side, so it bounces more heavily to the side (which is basically a top spin ball going toward the green board at that point). I call that the chainsaw serve or chainsaw chop if you hit it off the table. Feels like pulling the chord on a chainsaw to start it up, just dragging up underneath the ball parallel to the table's end.


Never heard of such a shot until now. Gives the impression of a lot of backspin and sidespin. A trick shot at best I'd imagine, but still cool. Regardless, still shows the pip can put a lot of spin on the ball. if he's doing the shot you say, he's playing a heavy topspin shot from an incoming topspin. With long pips. I'm back to questioning if that's possible lol. He also generates a good deal of backspin over the table while pushing with the long pip.

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FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 03:00 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
To Lorre and Snow -- what were your experiences with using SP vs LP over the first few hits of the point?

Did you win more points with SP early on, since you could put heavy spin on right away... and with LP did you last longer, getting more points through extended chopping/pushing rallies?

For me... my games don't look anything like pro level! Neither are the players. I've only played a 2300+ rated player a few times in a tournament setting. And the first time, the guy kept looking at the score sheet wondering if there was a mistake on the matching :lol: he even asked the tournament officials about it :rofl:

Point being, I don't often face super-mega-power loopers going to crush every ball. Even at 2000-2200 level or so, there are still a lot of mistakes being made compared to the next tier up.

Now with the dinking style, the rallies can go on quite awhile. I mean... quite awhile! I oftentimes just win out of boredom and frustration on the opponent's part! Wanting to get the game over with so they just start hitting everything left and right, before storming off and telling everyone I suck. :rock:

Which is why I wonder if the SP would be worthwhile to learn over a longer period of time -- in the hope that my early game is more effective. Meaning I could bring about danger earlier on, instead of the dink dink dink, wait them out variety of games. Having said that, the OX LP offer me a huge crutch in terms of returning any ball. But it's just a dink ball return. I win through attrition and consistency, not on any great play or deception.


Yes, short pips can lead to shorter rallies for sure, one way or another.

My initial experience when first making the switch was that I'd have to play a couple of extra balls with long pips but would be less likely to make an error. Kind of standard, something we all know here I think.

Think things are different for me now with P1r and Hurricane. Points are maybe quicker than ever before. But that's because I'm aimimg to use the advantages of both to win points, which is force error or push with long pips and mop up with forehand.

I'm finding with P1r in 1.5mm most players will net the ball after 2-3 loops in succession. A couple of strong players I've hit with looped an average say of 2-7 in a row though. Either that or they push, which is an oppoertunity to hit. Very different to when using Feint Long 2, where felt that I would be in for some rallies. But part of that could be me just getting better at cutting the ball with long pips.

So my point here is maybe if you want to cut the rallies down, give your long pip but with sponge a long trial. As this thread uncovers perhaps, you only switch around who you find easier by going the short pip route, though against players who don't play with a lot of spin, short pips obviously have an advantage over long pips.

Don't know if they still make it, or if you've tried it, but Dr Evil, a short pip, would give you good control and reliability against heavy spin, but you have some access to spin manipulation. Lose out on reversal but if you're ending up in a lot of long rallies with ox long pips, maybe it's because opponents don't play with enough spin. So something like Dr Evil would give you options you don't hsve in those situations with ox long pips.

But I'm not really in a position to tell you what to do lol. I'm here too on this thread at the of the day battling my own indecisiveness on whether to stick with long pips or go the Spectol and co route. The problem for me is both sides have really strong positives, and you cant have both. So will always miss the other I think now, whichever I choose. Putting a lot of hope in Horizontal 55 then lol. I think for me it's not a case of P1r not working for me, but rather that I don't yet feel comfortable not being fully in control of what I'm doing. I can only reduce or speed up reversal with P1r, and while it seems to be effective, I would prefer I think to retain a little more control over spin.


Yeah, I think it all depends on who you lost to last :lol: :lol:

I have the super spinpips in .3 all the way up to 1.8 sponge thickness, so might glue on the .3 to give it a whirl. My biggest problem is not even off the table chopping, since I can use LP or SP about equal overall. It's over the table that bothers me! The OX LP style is so different compared to short pips or even grippy LP in thick sponges. Most of my points are lost doing serve return or botched pushes when using SP. With LP most anyone can do with me is try the long and dead serves hoping I hit a weak return. I nullify their usual spin tactics, and that alone messes up a lot of people. But then I don't really end up chopping much. It turns into me blocking at the table and cleaning up with the forehand -- or 'chopping' the ball and getting into those lengthy dink battles.

So with the LP, my pressure mainly comes from the forehand threat and sheer attrition. Though I don't like using my forehand, despite people telling me it's my best shot...

If you look at Elena Timina (very classical chopper, watched about 5 matches of hers recently and saw maybe 4-5 attacks across ALL of the games):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKE9gihHlcw

Probably seems boring to many... however, it's how I like to win! Whittle and whittle them down.

Goal would be to transfer the threat from my FH more over to my BH, through the usage of mixing up spins and not letting them relax against dink shots with the same spin - just done 15x in a row! It would take a pretty huge shift in my game to adjust the short, over the table play full time to SP though. So I'm wanting to hear of other experiences before investing my training time into that style. If it even works! Maybe that's just a load of crap, since I cannot even really find a classical SP chopper. All the ones I come across use LP or classic anti. Then I think, well they aren't using it because of the skill level they play against... and I'm not going to be facing consistent 2600+ level loopers! Does that balance out the abilities then - since the loopers here in the grand ol' USA are much weaker and perhaps LP aren't even needed.

I think my best bet, utilizing my actual strengths (not necessarily my favorite playstyle) would be a chen weixing style game -- BH chop and forehand loops/fishes. Or committing to a close to the table OX LP blocking and forehand clean up. The more I think about it the more idiotic I see myself, imagining some short pip chopper out there confusing and befuddling the other players... anytime someone hears or sees me talking about putting on short pips -- they have my permission to grab a sheet of max thickness short pips and just smack me across the face with it! :headbang: I could do a grippy LP with some sponge as a decent medium though. :lol:

These guys are similar to how I play now as far as the backhand style goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qFoEHxjiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgdfuPwJpz0


Watched the vids you linked. Elena Timina is a beautiful chopper. Probably a real pain the ass to play lol, but nice looking chops, very skilful obviously. And patient. Jeez very patient. I mean, playing that style, I'd imagine it's best to just use an ultra steady long pip like Feint Long 2 or 3 or P4 or something in OX or a very think sponge like. 5 maybe. Didn't Shiono, who was also rather patient, use P4 and then a Donic equivalent in 0.5 when changed sponsor? Basically focusing on ultra control over being difficult to play.

The second vid showed a blocker with a forehand. Obviously had long pips. By the looks of the errors his opponent makes, it's a very low friction ox long pip. This style so different to Elena. Maybe part of your confusion is just which style to play and then decide what will work best for thst? Because I'd imagine with this blocker style you'd want the most dangerous funny long pip rubber you can get on your bat, sacrificing control and options for thst awkward ball it gives opponents. I know a player with this exact style. Very good. Think he either is or was top 15 nationally in his age group, over 50 I think. Just side swipes and punch blocks and sometimes just sticking the bat there. Has good serves and a good forehand. Effective. But he's no chopper. Requires a different setup and skillet I think.

The third video more similar to first one, as both choppers who play the long game. Doesn't appear to overly effective ball to ball but gets a lot of stuff back. His skill then would be patience, and the ability to wear his opponents patience thin haha.

I think ox great for the close to the table blocker. Not the best for long range chopping. Though I've seen it done, I'd say it's best to have some sponge at least under your long pips if you plan on doing a lot of chopping.

I don't know anything about the more pimply type effect long pips, but always had in head thst Dr Neubauer ox long pips would surely give a funkier ball than even something like Dtechs. Keeps rallies short. Can setup forehand. That would be the idea, no? If you're using something like P4 to block thst close to the table, and that's the style you're going for, I can't imagine it would be the most efficient setup.

But if you're going to be a full on classical chopper, best to focus on pure control. That'd be my two cents. So a defensive defensive blade, so no Joo blade or anything that's on the faster side. Maybe something like the Koji Matshusta or the defensive version. I'd probably recommend P4 in 0.5mm.

These are two very different styles that basically I think require different setups to maximise potential.

The Chen Wexing style more what I'm going for, but with forehand chopping too. Keep the points rather short. When I think about it like this, this style is about setting up the forehand. And that's what I've been doing with current setup. P1r in 1.5mm is going to do thst well. Because its more predictable than short pips, chances are they'll realise they can't keep lifting the ball and will push at least half of the time before they'd net it. The better ones anyway. Basically time for forehand attack at this moment. Also plenty of third ball kill too with this style. Good serve or just see an opening. See Chen do thst a lot. And I find I'm doing it quite a bit too, something I didn't used to do as much.

The thing with short pips is this. It gives you more options to end the point. And that's why I think if it's a game where you're not really using your forehand, and your opponent isn't just infinitely pushing (in which case you can either just push back or take the initiative yourself and attack), you'll win points more quickly overall with short pips. But you'll also make a few more mistakes. An okay player can start to judge that, ah, I net the third ball, so push the second one or whatever. Might go for kill shots and miss and still make mistakes against your chops, but he knows that he can push to reset the difficulty level of lifting your chop. Great if you want to go for the kill with your forehand. But with short pips, your opponent more likely to make an error even with the push, because the spin, if you're varying it, is not predictable. Plus can hit well with short pips. So makes them more uneasy.

So if you stick with the long, steady, ultra patient chopping style, go with control focused equipment in my opinion.
If you go with close to the table blocker style, go with as funky an ox long pip as you can get.
If you go the Chen style, so aggressive defender, it probably is P1r in 1.5mm or something isn't it? Or some equivalent.
I think the short pip route nowadays more like Hou Yingchau. Basically OK attacking with backhand and forehand. Being unpredictable with backhand chops, so looking to end more points in your favor from a chopping position opposed to the setup forehand Chen style. Yuto Maramatsu seems to not be as good at that as Hou though, as gets into a lot of long rallies. But he's steady. I'd like to know then why he uses short pips. Maybe I haven't seen enough of his games and I'm missing something.

I don't think it's so much that short pips shorten points actually. More about giving you more options to end the point. You can win the point in more ways with short pips. Long pips like P1r more one dimensional, but gives more of a rinse and repeat forehand setup situation. On the pro tour, Feint Long 3 and P4 type rubbers just seem to used for consistency in lower thicknesses. Am I right? Which is interesting as my aim using them would be to try and replicate certain short pip like spin variation options. Seen Ruwen Filus do a few variations thst catch people out though with his Feint Long 3 though.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 03:14 
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Lorre wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Watered down in the sense that you can't force as many errors with those LP when compared to SP, where they have more grip so you dictate the variation. So it's like a lower friction short pip. More safety at the cost of less manipulation.

I know with those you can do fairly heavy sidespin chops and get the ball really arcing sideways. But not to the killer degree that a Hou type side chop gets. In fact, do even the pro LP choppers try the sidespin banana chops?

Maybe it's my technique with the sponged LP... even with 1.6mm sponge on the curl p4, it still seems like rather weak spin to me. I think I'm chopping heavy and hard, but the amount of spin does not reflect what my mental image is telling me :lol: :lol: What do you think about it? p4 vs short pip in spinning vs a dead ball?


SP are a lot better than P4 in spinning up a dead ball. P4 is better than most LPs, but not nearly as good as a SP in doing that. P4 still feels like a LP to me when it comes to that.


Short pips better at spinning a dead ball, yes. But can still put a lot of spin on a dead ball with P4 in 1.5mm. Even Feint Long 3 in 1.1 can put quite a bit on it. For me it's not the amount of spin possible with P4 as such but more about the difference between your float and heavy chop. It's just not as wide as with short pips. And it's the dufference between the two more than the actual amount of spin that fools your opponent. Definitely as you say feels like a long pip still though. Reacts better when there's spin on ball, losing some control when there's little spin on the ball.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 03:32 
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Blade: SOULSPIN DEFENSE
FH: Spinny stuff
BH: Spongeless reviled stuff
I think they could do it, but that's without checking on the legal specs etc.

My idea would be (again not sure of the ITTF legalities for LP) - have a more conical shaped pip, where it starts out thicker at the base and forms a small flat circle at the top which would have the lowest friction allowable. But instead of it dropping straight down into a cylinder, the pip would be angled outward first before dropping down.

https://imgur.com/a/7per52O

So if you contacted the ball flat without bending the pips, it would result in very high passive reversal. But if you raked hard, the angled portion of the rubber would have extreme grip (maybe even tackiness) with enough surface area to actually matter. The round top tips could be made much smaller to give a bigger area for gripping on the sides. Soft, flexible pips that are easily bent.

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 06:22 
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Snowman89 wrote:
Lorre wrote:
Throwing an interesting question into the discussion: do you think it is possible to create a pip that has the best of both worlds? So in the long game having the control and reversal of LP, while in the short game having the control against no spin balls and spin manipulation options of SP?

I think it might be possible, but it hasn't been created yet. The closest calls in existence are LPs with thick sponge or SPs with thin sponge.

Do MPs fill in this gap? Does there exist a MP that strikes this thin cord?


If such a rubber existed there'd be no need for long or short pips for chopping at a high level. I want this kind of rubber to exist, but I doubt any rubber currently ticks all these boxes. Of course, if someone knows otherwise, please point us all to this God pip!

I think it is possible to create such a rubber, in terms of traits. But would require some major evolution in rubber tech I'd imagine. Maybe I'm wrong.

I will add though thst I don't think reversal is a necessary ingredient. For me, the number one reason to use long pips is the forgiveness. The number one reason to use short pips is spin manipulation. Talking about choppers. What I really want to happen is for some rubber to truly blend those. If the rubber had reversal, surely it would counteract its ability to manipulate spin in short pip fashion. Plus, reversal obviously isn't as effective as switching between heavy and no spin. At least at higher levels. Well, actually even at lower levels providing you yourself can effectively vary the spin.

I think long pip forgiveness overrides its weakness against no spin balls, as not as challenging as it should be to return a flat opening strike. And then once you've chopped it back, with a good action, you can get a lot of backspin on your return. I'd say good luck to your opponent trying to flat hit thst ball again. Certainly with P1r in 1.5mm anyway. But still, I understand, it would be best to avoid it all together, having to chop such a strike. Which of course can be done with short pips.

P4 in 1.5mm would be the closest to this ideal rubber so far from what I've tried, if it weren't for soft sponge I think. I have control issues with soft sponge weirdly, while having good control with harder sponge. Possibly due to the technique developed playing with ox short pips for so long with nothing but hard wood underneath so learned to cushion the ball myself. Again, this is what I have in mind with Horizontal 55. So I'll be sure to give my two cents on it. Know you've tried it Lorre, but hearing contrasting things about it so need to see for myself.

I think my biggest issue with P1r is just thst I don't like the feeling of not being in full control of what's happening and it limits my approach and options. But it does do what it does extremely well. Never had a rubber thst sets up attacks so well. My fear with it is being forced into a situation where all I can do it continue to get the ball back. Its not as if you can mix things up much, certainly not without twiddling. @skilless slapper, I don't think I would have your patience lol.


You could question the existence of it, though. If it already exists, would a pro necessarily use it? What if a lot of pro's aren't EJs? Because the sample of good players playing defense is small, it might be quite easy to overlook the pip that has it all. Also, a lot of people aren't innovators: they hear/see from peers or pro's to use LP/SP x, they use and settle on it and that's the story.

Well, let's say, as par tof the LP requirement, instead of reversal you'd have a huge capability of creating backspin and flight path would be awkward.

I understand your curiosity about the Horizontal 55. If you hear different opinions, it's best to test it yourself. Just let me know I was right all along! :lol: In all seriousness I'm quite curious about your review too. I'm even curious about the Horizontal 20 and Vertical 20 (because the pip structure - made for more control and less spin manipulation - contradicts the soft sponge) in 1,4-1,7 thickness.

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 06:29 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
I think they could do it, but that's without checking on the legal specs etc.

My idea would be (again not sure of the ITTF legalities for LP) - have a more conical shaped pip, where it starts out thicker at the base and forms a small flat circle at the top which would have the lowest friction allowable. But instead of it dropping straight down into a cylinder, the pip would be angled outward first before dropping down.

https://imgur.com/a/7per52O

So if you contacted the ball flat without bending the pips, it would result in very high passive reversal. But if you raked hard, the angled portion of the rubber would have extreme grip (maybe even tackiness) with enough surface area to actually matter. The round top tips could be made much smaller to give a bigger area for gripping on the sides. Soft, flexible pips that are easily bent.


Nice, nice! :up: However, two problems: (1) grip should be equal on the whole surface and (2) when would it be possible to not let the pips bend, if the pips are flexible? It's impossible when in defense and in the short game you need the extra grip from the sides.

Also, what would happen if the angles outward wouldn't be not continuous, but more continuous, more fluid, more gradually: not a straight line, but more parabolic?

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 06:46 
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I've settled for medium-low spin mid pips. They give the forgiveness and heavy backspin vs strong loops (similar to p1r). Emergency chops give a low, deceptive float that is almost always attacked long. What I like about it most is that I can now drive topspin and hit backspin balls (with p1r could only loop which was predictable and easy to counter back) with surprising consistency. So no more safe returns of serve to my backhand with a half-flick as I'll just smash it down the line or to the pocket though I'm not yet 100% consistent with this shot, something to work on.
I find this style of defence with mixed hits very effective, opponents must always be on their toes, can't ever feel too safe.


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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2019, 07:37 
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Pure Luck wrote:
I've settled for medium-low spin mid pips. They give the forgiveness and heavy backspin vs strong loops (similar to p1r). Emergency chops give a low, deceptive float that is almost always attacked long. What I like about it most is that I can now drive topspin and hit backspin balls (with p1r could only loop which was predictable and easy to counter back) with surprising consistency. So no more safe returns of serve to my backhand with a half-flick as I'll just smash it down the line or to the pocket though I'm not yet 100% consistent with this shot, something to work on.
I find this style of defence with mixed hits very effective, opponents must always be on their toes, can't ever feel too safe.


Seems interesting. What pip are you using? What thickness? In which colour?

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