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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2021, 03:48 
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magnuseffect wrote:
Thanks! I've uploaded two full sets here that I'm thinking of analyzing. Would be great if anyone has some feedback.

https://youtu.be/kMCvrpvmBd0


I really enjoyed this more as I can see the points people lose without always being 'outplayed' so to speak.

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2021, 10:23 
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Hey magnuseffect,

I watched those two sets. I do agree with dunc about your opponent very much preferred it when you were attacking than having to deal with your heavy chops.

What do they say for basic tactics - play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses.
Your opponent missed with his forehand and backhand many times against your defence. He invited you to attack so he could play a counter type game rather than deal with your heavy underspin.

When you did attack successfully and he retreated away from the table, you smashed to his forehand (him being a left hander) why? The forehand is much better when fishing away from the table, most high level players will smash into the opponents backhand side, until there is a short on the table lob that they can angle away into the forehand for a winner.

Your game and shots are certainly of a very good level, this match you could have won i think changing your tactics.

kind regards

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2021, 13:28 
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Interesting games, thanks for posting. Very good quality play.

Game 1 and 2 seemed quite different. Some things I found interesting:

Game 1, you won 4 serves directly, and only lost 1. Game 2, you lost 5 serves directly, he only lost 2. He seemed to get used to your serve, and realise that he didn't need to keep it as tight, while you seemed to be in an more aggressive mindset.

Your looping was a lot more aggressive in the 2nd game, he was struggling a lot more with your looping in this game. Many of your loops seemed to be to his forehand side, which was much more powerful than his bh away from the table - you could have attacked the bh more, particularly with your sidespin loop.

Also, you seem to wait for the ball to bounce before you prepare for the loop - if you prepared when the ball left his bat, the loop could be more powerful.

He changed tactics in the 2nd game: just rolling the ball over the net with his bh when you were back, and setting up the next shot, When he used his bh to your middle, he seemed to win most of the points (as against going wide, where he had more trouble with the return).

all just my opinion, of course....
(edit - didn't read comments above before I posted - but some seem to align)


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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2021, 16:51 
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Ndragon wrote:
mart1nandersson wrote:
Ängby has got an entire array of choppers coming through their ranks (Keränen, Sjövold etc). They played young Alve Sjövold alongside Mr Ericsson in one of their team matches this past weekend in Superettan (2nd league tier).

https://solidsport.com/angbysk/watch/su ... epings-btk
https://solidsport.com/angbysk/watch/su ... btk-bord-2


I cannot watch it without signing in. Is that how it is or am I doing something wrong?


You need to register but it’s free. The only thing that costs is some of the livestreams of the top division. Reruns are free.


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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2021, 18:09 
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magnuseffect wrote:
mart1nandersson wrote:
Ängby has got an entire array of choppers coming through their ranks (Keränen, Sjövold etc). They played young Alve Sjövold alongside Mr Ericsson in one of their team matches this past weekend in Superettan (2nd league tier).

https://solidsport.com/angbysk/watch/su ... epings-btk
https://solidsport.com/angbysk/watch/su ... btk-bord-2


Nice to see that there are some young swedish defenders! I just had a quick look at some of Alves matches on youtube. He has nice variation in his game. Will take a look at the league links also, thanks! Would love to play in an all defender team :) Is alternative playing styles and equipment getting more popular now? Maybe inspired by Bergström and Falck.


I guess that several factors are in play here:
1) Role models like Linda and Gustaf in the club inspiring young players to pick up the style
2) Very good know how in the club when it comes to both short and long pips
3) It’s a massive club. Have a look at the last national youth champs and it looks like their own internal club championship. Someone is bound to pickup pips when you have that volume of players

I always get a bit nervous when meeting a young player from Ängby as pretty much everyone is training against pips on a regular basis. The LP feels like a handicap and you really have to fight in order to win points.


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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2021, 06:05 
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Wow, didn't expect this much response! Thanks everyone!


dunc wrote:
Good to watch :)

In the first end, he struggled with your defensive game. When you started playing more forehands, he almost welcomed that - he was quite comfortable blocking and punching them.

Second end you started badly (gave away 3 points off serve receive and trying to playing a sidespin forehand practically off the ground... :) ) but then got a few good FH rallies in to catch up. However, if you watch it back, you'll see you won a few points with your defensive game and lost quite a few points trying to attack. In the end, you lost that set because I think you gave away 6? points off your forehand loop.

He seemed to give your defensive game absolutely no problems, and he lost quite a few points from it. Why did you attack so much? I think you've done a "me" :) If you'd pushed him around a bit more and encouraged him to attack more, I think you could've beaten him quite easily.



Very interesting take, because I'm usually coached to play more offensive. Might be because the coaches have been offensive players :). But I think the main reason is that I feel my backhand chop is not consistent or high enough quality. In the first sets I can usually win some easy points but as the opponent gets used to it it becomes harder. Particurlarly left handed players, often slow loop to backhand and the chops get higher and higher until they can finish the point with a smash.

Some points that illustrate this: https://youtu.be/LDgzvFm9gVw?t=94, https://youtu.be/LDgzvFm9gVw?t=377 and https://youtu.be/pZN7anwGxIc?t=156. These points could explain why I'm not very confident going into chopping rallies. If the chop had better quality (lower and longer) and placement (not always to middle and forehand) it would be different.

These two sets didn't show much of this so maybe weren't completely representative. But could also be that I just remember these points and forget the easy points, leading to picking the wrong strategy. This is why I should do more objective analysis of matches. Also getting your feedback is helful.

Looking at the missed forehands some of them are poor judgement (sidespin forehand and trying to counterloop a spinny backhand loop). I decide on the shot without judging the incoming ball. Some of the others like missing the long top/sidespin serves I think is a technique and practice issue. Need to go more foreward.


ttgame wrote:
Hey magnuseffect,

I watched those two sets. I do agree with dunc about your opponent very much preferred it when you were attacking than having to deal with your heavy chops.

What do they say for basic tactics - play to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses.
Your opponent missed with his forehand and backhand many times against your defence. He invited you to attack so he could play a counter type game rather than deal with your heavy underspin.

When you did attack successfully and he retreated away from the table, you smashed to his forehand (him being a left hander) why? The forehand is much better when fishing away from the table, most high level players will smash into the opponents backhand side, until there is a short on the table lob that they can angle away into the forehand for a winner.

Your game and shots are certainly of a very good level, this match you could have won i think changing your tactics.

kind regards


Thanks for the feedback! I agree I should be better at choosing when to attack. Its the mindset and judgement issues I've been talking about. Also good point on placement, looking at the fishing rallies I did play too much to forehand. My placement is often bad when it comes to longer rallies. Also when chopping or looping against block. Might just be too caught up in the rally forgetting placement.



PRW wrote:
Interesting games, thanks for posting. Very good quality play.

Game 1 and 2 seemed quite different. Some things I found interesting:

Game 1, you won 4 serves directly, and only lost 1. Game 2, you lost 5 serves directly, he only lost 2. He seemed to get used to your serve, and realise that he didn't need to keep it as tight, while you seemed to be in an more aggressive mindset.

Your looping was a lot more aggressive in the 2nd game, he was struggling a lot more with your looping in this game. Many of your loops seemed to be to his forehand side, which was much more powerful than his bh away from the table - you could have attacked the bh more, particularly with your sidespin loop.

Also, you seem to wait for the ball to bounce before you prepare for the loop - if you prepared when the ball left his bat, the loop could be more powerful.

He changed tactics in the 2nd game: just rolling the ball over the net with his bh when you were back, and setting up the next shot, When he used his bh to your middle, he seemed to win most of the points (as against going wide, where he had more trouble with the return).

all just my opinion, of course....
(edit - didn't read comments above before I posted - but some seem to align)



Nice observation about the serves. I did get some easy points at first. I think in the second set I should have done more long fast serves to get more variation and keep my opponent guessing. And yes missing all those serves was annoying and as I mentioned to dunc I need to be able to loop long serves from my middle or forehand on the table, or maybe try chopping them.

About placement: I agree, need to hit more wide backhand, wide forehand or middle. Thanks also for the tip about early preparation. I'll try and practice that next training. I think the tactics in the second game is more representative of how it usually goes in our matches.

Thanks again for all the feedback, very encouraging!

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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2021, 06:41 
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mart1nandersson wrote:

I guess that several factors are in play here:
1) Role models like Linda and Gustaf in the club inspiring young players to pick up the style
2) Very good know how in the club when it comes to both short and long pips
3) It’s a massive club. Have a look at the last national youth champs and it looks like their own internal club championship. Someone is bound to pickup pips when you have that volume of players

I always get a bit nervous when meeting a young player from Ängby as pretty much everyone is training against pips on a regular basis. The LP feels like a handicap and you really have to fight in order to win points.


Yes I remember seeing lots of Ängby players at tournaments in Sweden (easy to notice in their red t-shirts). Nice to hear that they have a good environment for defenders. And its true that you can really tell which clubs have pimple players based on how the other players in the club play you. Just now at the Veterans one player complained after the match that they had no pimple players and that was quite noticeable.

Would be fun to play matches in Sweden again to face some new players. Here in Norway the sport is so small that you play the same people all the time.

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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2021, 17:08 
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magnuseffect wrote:
mart1nandersson wrote:

I guess that several factors are in play here:
1) Role models like Linda and Gustaf in the club inspiring young players to pick up the style
2) Very good know how in the club when it comes to both short and long pips
3) It’s a massive club. Have a look at the last national youth champs and it looks like their own internal club championship. Someone is bound to pickup pips when you have that volume of players

I always get a bit nervous when meeting a young player from Ängby as pretty much everyone is training against pips on a regular basis. The LP feels like a handicap and you really have to fight in order to win points.


Yes I remember seeing lots of Ängby players at tournaments in Sweden (easy to notice in their red t-shirts). Nice to hear that they have a good environment for defenders. And its true that you can really tell which clubs have pimple players based on how the other players in the club play you. Just now at the Veterans one player complained after the match that they had no pimple players and that was quite noticeable.

Would be fun to play matches in Sweden again to face some new players. Here in Norway the sport is so small that you play the same people all the time.


You should check out the new Stockholm Veteran Open that a few clubs will jointly host in March next year. The Open will be played in the brand new TT hall in Kungsängen outside of Stockholm. Probably the best TT hall in Sweden. The tournament was just announced today:
https://www.sparvagenbtk.se/globalasset ... n-2022.pdf

Here's a promo from the opening of the hall with some footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y9MTTUDonc


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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2021, 17:21 
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magnuseffect wrote:
Very interesting take, because I'm usually coached to play more offensive. Might be because the coaches have been offensive players :).

Yup, that's exactly what it will be. I've had many offensive players try to coach me, and 99% of the time that is their advice. There are often times where defensive players need to attack more, but this definitely wasn't one of them - or at least not from what we could see in these two sets.

magnuseffect wrote:
But I think the main reason is that I feel my backhand chop is not consistent or high enough quality. In the first sets I can usually win some easy points but as the opponent gets used to it it becomes harder. Particurlarly left handed players, often slow loop to backhand and the chops get higher and higher until they can finish the point with a smash.

This is exactly how I play against choppers - spinny loop after spinny loop into their pimples, until they pop it up high, then I flat hit a winner. I have to say though, I don't think this is how your opponent was playing. I think if you'd pushed/chopped around more instead of attacking, I think he would've tried to attack you and lost more points.

Offensive players like your opponent are very used to blocking and/or retrieving. They're comfortable against topspin and comfortable against pace. If you want to get into an offensive rally with them, you need to have an "edge". There are a few ways to do this:
  • Excellent placement (like you did in a few rallies)
  • Heavy spin (often after your opponent has pushed one of your chops, come in and spin one up)
  • Vary the spin (e.g. in a chopping rally, switching to a FH loop or just a spinny FH retrieve can catch your opponent off guard)
  • Catch them off guard with speed (often after your opponent has played a loose loop or push)

When you watch the top defensive players, this is what they do. They don't just get into FH rallies (unless their opponent is clearly weak to it) for no reason, they only wield their attacks when they have an advantage. Picture JSH running into the table to play a massive loop-kill or Hou Yingchao smacking a winner when his opponent misreads his chops, etc. Even Filus and Gionis (who don't use a FH chop and are very attack focused) do this - they don't attack on equal terms.

magnuseffect wrote:
These two sets didn't show much of this so maybe weren't completely representative. But could also be that I just remember these points and forget the easy points, leading to picking the wrong strategy. This is why I should do more objective analysis of matches. Also getting your feedback is helful.

This is where having a coach can be really helpful :) Obviously that's not a common thing at a tournament, but if you have a friend (or, in league matches, a teammate) who can watch out for this kind of thing, it can be a game changer. I would've spotted this after the first end and encouraged you to play a more patient defensive game. Strongly believe you would've beaten him quite comfortably with the right strategy - and that's a GOOD thing; means there is a way for you to improve your game without hundreds of hours of additional training :)

There was a Ma Te game recently where he lost because he tried to attack too much. If he watched the game back, he'd see it immediately, but when you're in the match, it's different. I suspect his (offensive) teammates/coaches probably told him to attack more. In the deciding end, he came out attacking, and lost the first 5? points.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2021, 20:30 
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mart1nandersson wrote:

You should check out the new Stockholm Veteran Open that a few clubs will jointly host in March next year. The Open will be played in the brand new TT hall in Kungsängen outside of Stockholm. Probably the best TT hall in Sweden. The tournament was just announced today:
https://www.sparvagenbtk.se/globalasset ... n-2022.pdf

Here's a promo from the opening of the hall with some footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y9MTTUDonc


That hall looks amazing and looks like a nice tournament too, thanks for the tip! The calendar is pretty full in March but let's see.

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2021, 00:08 
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dunc wrote:
This is exactly how I play against choppers - spinny loop after spinny loop into their pimples, until they pop it up high, then I flat hit a winner. I have to say though, I don't think this is how your opponent was playing. I think if you'd pushed/chopped around more instead of attacking, I think he would've tried to attack you and lost more points.

Offensive players like your opponent are very used to blocking and/or retrieving. They're comfortable against topspin and comfortable against pace. If you want to get into an offensive rally with them, you need to have an "edge". There are a few ways to do this:
  • Excellent placement (like you did in a few rallies)
  • Heavy spin (often after your opponent has pushed one of your chops, come in and spin one up)
  • Vary the spin (e.g. in a chopping rally, switching to a FH loop or just a spinny FH retrieve can catch your opponent off guard)
  • Catch them off guard with speed (often after your opponent has played a loose loop or push)

When you watch the top defensive players, this is what they do. They don't just get into FH rallies (unless their opponent is clearly weak to it) for no reason, they only wield their attacks when they have an advantage. Picture JSH running into the table to play a massive loop-kill or Hou Yingchao smacking a winner when his opponent misreads his chops, etc. Even Filus and Gionis (who don't use a FH chop and are very attack focused) do this - they don't attack on equal terms.



It's how I play choppers as well, which is something I enjoy. Lucky that not more players do this. Offensive me would probably beat defensive me :)

Good point about attacking when you have an edge like the situations you mentioned. My problem is in choosing when to attack. A balanced approach between offence and defence could for example mean (ballbark numbers):
- Easy put aways: 100% offensive
- Loose balls: 80% offensive
- Counterloop from forehand: 60% offensive (the other 40% could be fishing or chopping)
- Regular pushes to forehand: 40% offensive
- Regular push returns to backhand: 20% offensive
- Pushes/returns that are hard to attack: 5% offensive (just once in a while to not be too predictable)

But instead, I play like an offensive player attacking balls that are either risky or doesn't give any advantage. Maybe because I used to play offensive for many years. Looking at the top defenders their judgement is much better. Also, defenders that are on the more passive side like Chtchetinine and Daniel Kleinert (the chopper on youtube) are able to choose the easy balls to put away.

dunc wrote:
This is where having a coach can be really helpful :) Obviously that's not a common thing at a tournament, but if you have a friend (or, in league matches, a teammate) who can watch out for this kind of thing, it can be a game changer. I would've spotted this after the first end and encouraged you to play a more patient defensive game. Strongly believe you would've beaten him quite comfortably with the right strategy - and that's a GOOD thing; means there is a way for you to improve your game without hundreds of hours of additional training :)

There was a Ma Te game recently where he lost because he tried to attack too much. If he watched the game back, he'd see it immediately, but when you're in the match, it's different. I suspect his (offensive) teammates/coaches probably told him to attack more. In the deciding end, he came out attacking, and lost the first 5? points.


Would be great having a coach that can give specific advice on which balls to attack or not attack. It's hard to see this yourself when playing. This would have improved my changes for sure, but I think winning comfortably is a bit of a stretch as he is ranked quite a bit higher than me :)

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2021, 08:37 
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The season is really getting started this month. Played a national tournament today, have league next week, then another league weekend beginning of December followed by a national tournament the week after.

Will get back with some updates on how it went. I got some good feedback from the last match so have uploaded a full match here https://youtu.be/pK2qm7l8dhc.

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Last edited by magnuseffect on 14 Nov 2021, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2021, 21:54 
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Been thinking about how to do match analysis. My usual approach is mostly subjective, based on how it felt during the match and looking at the video after. Getting feedback from others, like on this blog, or from experienced coaches helps, but objective analysis of mathches would also be useful.

In the coming years I think we will have a revolution in AI analysis as we've seen used on table tennis daily. So far I've found OSAI (osai.ai) and Betterplay (betterplay.ai), which was mentioned in this article https://pingsunday.com/using-a-i-in-tab ... highlight/. None of these is available for regular users yet. Betterplay had a beta period but there is not much on the website now. OSAI is mainly working with leagues and tournaments, but I contacted them and even got a quick zoom chat. Basically, their current system is for professionals, involving expensive equipment that does real-time analysis. However, they said that there is much interest in a service where you can upload videos for analysis and are working on this. Can't wait to try it out. Will be interesting to see how well it works from the typical coaching angle or if we need to start filming from the side.

In the meantime, I tried doing a visualization of serve placements in the match from yesterday. My serves on the right and opponents on the left. Green for a won point and red for lost:
Image

Not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this since many of the points were longer and wasn't decided by the serve. Its also missing the type of serve (spin and speed). But one thing you can draw from this is placement in general. And it supports my feeling from the match that my attempts at long serves were not really long. The serves were also badly placed so no wonder they didn't work. Was thinking of doing a similar visualization for serve returns but it's just too time-consuming.

Would be great to hear from forumers that have experience with video analysis. So far I've found posts about using spreadsheets to analyse matches and videos from Brian Pace showing his system for analysing.

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Last edited by magnuseffect on 14 Nov 2021, 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2021, 23:04 
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magnuseffect wrote:
The season is really getting started this month. Played a national tournament today, have league next week, then another national tournament beginning of December followed by league the week after.

Will get back with some updates on how it went. I got some good feedback from the last match so have uploaded a full match here https://youtu.be/pK2qm7l8dhc.


as soon as i saw 9-10mins for 1 match I knew this was going to be a great watch and it did not disappoint! :rock: :rock: :rock:

I personally love this style of edit as I can see really how the game unfolds and see where people lose the points etc. You grafted hard for that but unfortunately lost it in the end, you had it in the bag though I feel the pressure got to you maybe. Unluckly mate

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2021, 23:37 
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Ndragon wrote:
as soon as i saw 9-10mins for 1 match I knew this was going to be a great watch and it did not disappoint! :rock: :rock: :rock:

I personally love this style of edit as I can see really how the game unfolds and see where people lose the points etc. You grafted hard for that but unfortunately lost it in the end, you had it in the bag though I feel the pressure got to you maybe. Unluckly mate


Thanks! It was a grafty match (as I understand the concept of graft from watching TTD league videos : ). Not often I get that worked up. Yeah I think the pressure got to both us the last set.

On the positive side some things that worked well were returning with inverted to stop strong attacks and for spin variation and also short serve to forehand and then pimple quick push to backhand. Things to work on are being able to serve long and fast under pressure and find a serve that lets me get more 3rd ball attacks, got hardly any this match. I think a short serve even wider in forehand would have given me some returns to forehand and middle that could have been looped.

Edit: Uploaded a short highlights video. Only filmed one of my matches so this time its mostly of my team mate who returns everything :)


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Blade: Victas Yuto Muramatsu
Forehand: Dignics 09c 2.1
Backhand: Curl P1V 1mm

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