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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2022, 19:48 
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Thanks Dr Pivot for your feedback.

I would not call my backhand a punch however. If you put it on slow motion you can see a wrist flick and a wrist shake at the end of the stroke. This implies a strong topspin element to the stroke. If I do a punch stroke, my bat goes straight through the ball in the direction of the ball travel with a zero topspin element.

I have been meaning to see how much spin is left on the ball (if any) after my backhand with the crack sound hits the floor. I am assuming you can get the crack sound and also can have an element of spin. I actually got into an argument about this topic with a guy I play with.

In my latest forehand, not shown, I am bringing the elbow back close to the body and the hand rises before the forward swing. All the Chinese seem to do this. The stroke flows more and seems more powerful. Its faster to set up the backswing and a forehand against block or an open up have the exact same preparation. Brett mentioned to me that if the stroke starts close to the body and the arm straightens away from the body it had more momentum. Its counter intuitive as your arm has to be very relaxed to straighten.

I would recommend, based on my experience, to copy exactly the stroke mechanics of the Chinese forehand . I'm using split screen video software to do this with my guys. Video is great for feedback. I HATE IT. It will give you the Brett advantage. When I do it well my training partner has trouble blocking it.

I went to the Australian nationals as two 13 year olds guys I coach were playing. I hardly saw any person in the hall doing a Chinese forehand with a visible arm straightening and maybe only one doing a Harimoto style backhand. I asked a state coach why this was so and he told me you can get to the top in table tennis in Australia without the latest technique.

Sad really.


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2022, 23:10 
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Inspired by wilkinru, here is a super-long of state-of-my-game post ...

I just came home from another B75 camp where the multi-year de-Frankensteining of my game continued. A friend pointed out that using a hard topsheet chinese rubber to play forehands basically from standing on top of the table is dumb. The sponge might as well not even be there. Ok, I accept this. But I reallly really did not want to get back on an ej treadmill. Fortunately I was at a camp with 100 other players so I could try a lot of rubbers for free. And double fortunately there was a girl in my training group who plays pretty much the style I aspire to, and she has Rozena on both sides of a Viscaria. I am keeping my acoustic carbon and SP backhand, but Rozena is the choice of new forehand rubber. Hurricane 8 kicked to the curb. Here is a match video of my small role model Lisa in case anyone is interested. https://youtu.be/Jf1czuxMt8M

So the '21 - '22 training season was all about taking small steps to get properly behind the ball to play backhands, because if you don't do that with short pips you will always completely suck. I went into the camp wanting to work more on that but the coaches said No, it was good. Which pissed me off at first, but then I thought I should be happy that a year of work with a coach actually improved the thing it was meant to. So we did posture and timing and some technique things on both sides, lots of things. I came home with a list that is much too long. It goes like this:
more small steps (like in-and-out and moving to my left),
chest down,
super-early timing,
fh technique fixes (funny bone pointed down, waist turn, no shoulder swing, no weight transfer, block better, push better),
bh technique fixes (small backswing, grip and bat angle changes, push better, and not so hard - placement),
and perception.

After decent success improving one thing last year I feel bold enough to choose two things from this list. Not six things with ten sub-things, that's crazy talk. But two things. So I chose chest down, partly because that is the #1 thing my coach at home always wants from me. Also because a B75 coach explained to me that fixing my posture would fix most of my technique problems, and trying to fix technique without fixing posture is close to impossible. Also it has been a huge problem forever. I remember NL telling me in 2015 or '16 that he had never seen anyone bodily bail out of rallies the way I do. So making even moderate improvements there would feel amazing.

I asked the friend who told me to ditch the chinese fh rubber to pick a second thing off this list, and he chose blocking. My first thought was goddammit! why did I let him choose? I don't want to spend a year practicing blocking! But when he said what he actually wants it got more interesting. The exercise is my coach serves short anything, I receive long (or half-long if I have the skills) anything, consciously trying to control his options for the third ball. Then the meat of the exercise -- based on the quality of my receive I have to decide whether I'm dead and should get back and just hope to block his attack on the table at all, or if I can block more aggressively, or even counter-topspin. And of course we play out the points. It's an exercise about decision-making with no real technique component at all. This has been interesting so far and is a fun way to end an hour lesson, playing 10 - 12 minutes of nearly-free points.

I have always felt that I was a dumb player. Like blind to the flow of the game and the rally, making bad reads and poor decisions. So when my friend suggested this exercise I was like "People practice this???" It's also very easy to carry this exercise over into stupid boring practice matches at the club which is a huge added benefit. Like technique or posture is practically impossible to train in a match so I often feel like those are a waste of time. This brings some utility to them.

Training is kind of frustrating right now because I went from something I had worked on for a year and improved to two new things that I am very very bad at. And I still have to devote mental and physical energy to retaining the small steps gains from last year. But I am excited to get feedback next July about how well the '22 - '23 goals have been met, from B75 coaches who won't have seen me in a year.

Of course all the million-and-one little things also get some attention. Here's my new lesson plan. Each exercise gets five minutes or until the number of touches is met. The warmups and free points split the other half hour. Three lessons a week, and I also have two training partners to do some of these with, together with whatever stuff they want for themselves.

warmup fh -fh, fh loop v block 2 x 20, bh-bh 2 x 20, fh countertops from close 1 x 15
2 bh 1 fh 2 x 24 then add serve 1 x 24
fh-middle-fh-bh 2 x 20 then add serve 1 x 20
fh blocks parallel
1 or 2 middle 1 or 2 either side 2 x 20 then add serve 1 x 20 (have not gotten this to 20 even once yet, but you got to have a dream, cause if you ain't got a dream ...)
bh - bh rally, coach can redirect parallel any time, I play fh parallel, resume bh-bh
bh blocks parallel
semi-free point exercise described above

We will change this a few times during the year as some exercises get too easy or boring. But for now it has nice variety, and the first few lessons on this plan have been a lot of fun.

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2022, 08:15 
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Been away from the game for too long. Decided to come back two months and slowly getting back into it.

Footage is from todays u2200 event.
https://youtu.be/XYgl3qgkZnw
https://youtu.be/4_HMkW4Ly_0
https://youtu.be/4V1od8bHEkA


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2022, 08:18 
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BRS wrote:
Inspired by wilkinru, here is a super-long of state-of-my-game post ...

I just came home from another B75 camp where the multi-year de-Frankensteining of my game continued. A friend pointed out that using a hard topsheet chinese rubber to play forehands basically from standing on top of the table is dumb. The sponge might as well not even be there. Ok, I accept this. But I reallly really did not want to get back on an ej treadmill. Fortunately I was at a camp with 100 other players so I could try a lot of rubbers for free. And double fortunately there was a girl in my training group who plays pretty much the style I aspire to, and she has Rozena on both sides of a Viscaria. I am keeping my acoustic carbon and SP backhand, but Rozena is the choice of new forehand rubber. Hurricane 8 kicked to the curb. Here is a match video of my small role model Lisa in case anyone is interested. https://youtu.be/Jf1czuxMt8M

So the '21 - '22 training season was all about taking small steps to get properly behind the ball to play backhands, because if you don't do that with short pips you will always completely suck. I went into the camp wanting to work more on that but the coaches said No, it was good. Which pissed me off at first, but then I thought I should be happy that a year of work with a coach actually improved the thing it was meant to. So we did posture and timing and some technique things on both sides, lots of things. I came home with a list that is much too long. It goes like this:
more small steps (like in-and-out and moving to my left),
chest down,
super-early timing,
fh technique fixes (funny bone pointed down, waist turn, no shoulder swing, no weight transfer, block better, push better),
bh technique fixes (small backswing, grip and bat angle changes, push better, and not so hard - placement),
and perception.

After decent success improving one thing last year I feel bold enough to choose two things from this list. Not six things with ten sub-things, that's crazy talk. But two things. So I chose chest down, partly because that is the #1 thing my coach at home always wants from me. Also because a B75 coach explained to me that fixing my posture would fix most of my technique problems, and trying to fix technique without fixing posture is close to impossible. Also it has been a huge problem forever. I remember NL telling me in 2015 or '16 that he had never seen anyone bodily bail out of rallies the way I do. So making even moderate improvements there would feel amazing.

I asked the friend who told me to ditch the chinese fh rubber to pick a second thing off this list, and he chose blocking. My first thought was goddammit! why did I let him choose? I don't want to spend a year practicing blocking! But when he said what he actually wants it got more interesting. The exercise is my coach serves short anything, I receive long (or half-long if I have the skills) anything, consciously trying to control his options for the third ball. Then the meat of the exercise -- based on the quality of my receive I have to decide whether I'm dead and should get back and just hope to block his attack on the table at all, or if I can block more aggressively, or even counter-topspin. And of course we play out the points. It's an exercise about decision-making with no real technique component at all. This has been interesting so far and is a fun way to end an hour lesson, playing 10 - 12 minutes of nearly-free points.

I have always felt that I was a dumb player. Like blind to the flow of the game and the rally, making bad reads and poor decisions. So when my friend suggested this exercise I was like "People practice this???" It's also very easy to carry this exercise over into stupid boring practice matches at the club which is a huge added benefit. Like technique or posture is practically impossible to train in a match so I often feel like those are a waste of time. This brings some utility to them.

Training is kind of frustrating right now because I went from something I had worked on for a year and improved to two new things that I am very very bad at. And I still have to devote mental and physical energy to retaining the small steps gains from last year. But I am excited to get feedback next July about how well the '22 - '23 goals have been met, from B75 coaches who won't have seen me in a year.

Of course all the million-and-one little things also get some attention. Here's my new lesson plan. Each exercise gets five minutes or until the number of touches is met. The warmups and free points split the other half hour. Three lessons a week, and I also have two training partners to do some of these with, together with whatever stuff they want for themselves.

warmup fh -fh, fh loop v block 2 x 20, bh-bh 2 x 20, fh countertops from close 1 x 15
2 bh 1 fh 2 x 24 then add serve 1 x 24
fh-middle-fh-bh 2 x 20 then add serve 1 x 20
fh blocks parallel
1 or 2 middle 1 or 2 either side 2 x 20 then add serve 1 x 20 (have not gotten this to 20 even once yet, but you got to have a dream, cause if you ain't got a dream ...)
bh - bh rally, coach can redirect parallel any time, I play fh parallel, resume bh-bh
bh blocks parallel
semi-free point exercise described above

We will change this a few times during the year as some exercises get too easy or boring. But for now it has nice variety, and the first few lessons on this plan have been a lot of fun.


Congrats on another trip!

That lesson plan looks like a quite the homework. Wish you the best of luck.


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PostPosted: 15 Aug 2022, 06:02 
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big d wrote:
Been away from the game for too long. Decided to come back two months and slowly getting back into it.

Footage is from todays u2200 event.
https://youtu.be/XYgl3qgkZnw
https://youtu.be/4_HMkW4Ly_0
https://youtu.be/4V1od8bHEkA
\

This actually brought a tear to my eye. I miss table tennis, need a miracle with my arthritis.

Good luck, the main problem is still the same - you need to find a better fitness balance to maintain your grit, everything is still there and will get better with more play. And the most important thing is that you are still playing and happy.

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One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus


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PostPosted: 15 Aug 2022, 09:34 
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This one's for Laj

https://youtu.be/CL6Mkkz89EU


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PostPosted: 16 Aug 2022, 11:31 
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big d wrote:



Rich will never forget those edge balls in the 5th! Good match!

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus


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PostPosted: 25 Aug 2022, 08:59 
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BRS wrote:
I asked the friend who told me to ditch the chinese fh rubber to pick a second thing off this list, and he chose blocking. My first thought was goddammit! why did I let him choose? I don't want to spend a year practicing blocking! But when he said what he actually wants it got more interesting. The exercise is my coach serves short anything, I receive long (or half-long if I have the skills) anything, consciously trying to control his options for the third ball. Then the meat of the exercise -- based on the quality of my receive I have to decide whether I'm dead and should get back and just hope to block his attack on the table at all, or if I can block more aggressively, or even counter-topspin. And of course we play out the points. It's an exercise about decision-making with no real technique component at all. This has been interesting so far and is a fun way to end an hour lesson, playing 10 - 12 minutes of nearly-free points.

I have always felt that I was a dumb player. Like blind to the flow of the game and the rally, making bad reads and poor decisions. So when my friend suggested this exercise I was like "People practice this???" It's also very easy to carry this exercise over into stupid boring practice matches at the club which is a huge added benefit. Like technique or posture is practically impossible to train in a match so I often feel like those are a waste of time. This brings some utility to them.


This drill seems perfect. I think if you are very bad at it, perhaps make the coach hit the ball to one side of the table or the other. Baby steps.


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PostPosted: 25 Aug 2022, 18:27 
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This year I didn't have a chance to practice as much as I would have liked. Instead, I played tournaments whenever my schedule allowed it. The goal was to be as competitive as possible with my current toolbox. Overall, I am happy with the way I played and the results.

I think I recently hit a ceiling. The next project I wanted to try is similar to Dr. Pivot's, i.e. play as many BH topspins as possible in match situations in an attempt to become a two-winged looper. However, I decided to make a detour and try short pips on my BH (Moristo SP in 1.8mm) for several months. Even if I switch back to inverted I hope to understand the strengths and weaknesses of short pips better, which should help when I play against short pips in the future.

Here is my first attempt at counter-hitting with short pips. Comments are welcome, especially from BRS. I tried to keep the racket angle more open than I previously did and to have a shorter backswing (this would be useful for inverted as well I believe).

https://youtu.be/LJIdnQhj5FY

There don't seem to be many instructional videos on Youtube. Some examples include

https://youtu.be/svi8VlHHts0
https://youtu.be/EMaQPDdg3qQ

BRS, can you recommend other videos?


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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2022, 11:52 
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chopblock wrote:
Here is my first attempt at counter-hitting with short pips. Comments are welcome, especially from BRS. I tried to keep the racket angle more open than I previously did and to have a shorter backswing (this would be useful for inverted as well I believe).

https://youtu.be/LJIdnQhj5FY

There don't seem to be many instructional videos on Youtube. Some examples include

https://youtu.be/svi8VlHHts0
https://youtu.be/EMaQPDdg3qQ

BRS, can you recommend other videos?


You look really good! Keeping your arm out in front is key and I think your swing is short enough. The racket is definitely open enough.

You are taking the ball a little too late to get a good pips effect. This is similar to the timing I play with and I am always too late. It's a little hard to tell from the angle but I would say if you could contact the ball halfway between where you are now and where it bounces on the table your shots would be much more difficult to handle. To achieve that backhand timing would force changes in your forehand which you may not want. My experience has been that it is impossible to play radically different timings between bh and fh.

It also looks like you are holding the bat perfectly horizontal. I have been coached to point the tip slightly up, like at 10 o'clock instead of 9. And the swing basically goes with your elbow from 10 to 12 and a few inches forward, which puts a slight upward trajectory on the ball. The girl in the MLFM video plays like that.

Your wrist is locked which is good against a hit. You need a little wrist to roll backspin, but against flat balls or topspin it will send the ball long too often.

About YT videos -- The MLFM one is good.
YangYang has two with Vicky Zhao https://youtu.be/g5U6cwZRjA4 and https://youtu.be/QkAtYs6gwig
The best one I know of is this with my DreamGirl Choi Hyojoo. it shows the 10-to-12 swing path and bat angle super clearly. https://youtu.be/6TgH05Ku5S0

FULL DISCLOSURE: My backhand is not that good. A more experienced SP player told me it takes five years to learn to use pips properly coming from inverted. I am three years in, deducting one year of Covid time with no TT. Here is a very recent video of me doing an exercise with my coach. We play bh-bh, he can redirect randomly to FH, then we resume bh-bh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Vs48RiMDM. Compare my swing with CHJ's and yours. My bat drops a little too low, I backswing too much, *every ball* is contacted too late, and as a result my swings are long. When I take the ball earlier over the table it's much better. That's not so easy to do though, not even in an exercise. So in a match ...

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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2022, 14:04 
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BRS wrote:
You look really good! Keeping your arm out in front is key and I think your swing is short enough. The racket is definitely open enough.

You are taking the ball a little too late to get a good pips effect. This is similar to the timing I play with and I am always too late. It's a little hard to tell from the angle but I would say if you could contact the ball halfway between where you are now and where it bounces on the table your shots would be much more difficult to handle. To achieve that backhand timing would force changes in your forehand which you may not want. My experience has been that it is impossible to play radically different timings between bh and fh.

It also looks like you are holding the bat perfectly horizontal. I have been coached to point the tip slightly up, like at 10 o'clock instead of 9. And the swing basically goes with your elbow from 10 to 12 and a few inches forward, which puts a slight upward trajectory on the ball. The girl in the MLFM video plays like that.

Your wrist is locked which is good against a hit. You need a little wrist to roll backspin, but against flat balls or topspin it will send the ball long too often.


Thanks for the feedback and providing the links! The video with CHJ is excellent and it's highly likely I would not have been able to find it.

It's not easy to see the swing path in your video, but I would say that your footwork -- assuming we are allowed to do so in this thread :D -- is great! Regarding dropping the bat a bit low, I have the same issue. The exception might have been the BH counterhit exercise with my son because he was playing at a slow speed. Otherwise, I drop my racquet too low.

In the CHJ video, it looks like she is using the wrist a little when moving from 10-12. Is that right? How about you? Did you use your wrist in the video you posted?

Will probably have more questions going forward...


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PostPosted: 26 Aug 2022, 14:20 
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I agree it looks like CHJ uses her wrist a little bit. My shot is more wristy than hers, I'm working on making it less.

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2022, 06:37 
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Thanks. I tried using the wrist yesterday, but it didn't work for me. I closed the racquet too much and hit many balls into the net. It also didn't help that I tried to hit the ball too hard...Using no wrist suited me better.

- In terms of the 10-12 thing, it was better imo.
- Not sure if I hit the ball earlier than before.
- It was difficult when I had to move. Instead of moving my legs/feet first (and "hiding my racquet inside my body") I moved my hand/arm first and I was leaning to my left. What's a good exercise to practice this?

https://youtu.be/A7yw8kUFOec


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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2022, 08:54 
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chopblock wrote:
- It was difficult when I had to move. Instead of moving my legs/feet first (and "hiding my racquet inside my body") I moved my hand/arm first and I was leaning to my left. What's a good exercise to practice this?

https://youtu.be/A7yw8kUFOec


It is difficult. There are a million exercises to practice that footwork because it isn't really any different for pips. Like inverted players can play okay backhands from weird arm positions, but good players try really hard not to have to do that.

It doesn't look like fitness is any issue for you so it's really just a mental discipline and a habit to form.

You and your son could do the one where you face each other a couple feet apart in a playing stance and throw a ball back and forth only catching it with your playing hand, and moving the location randomly a few inches every time.

Two-point bh

Or if reading the ball placement in time is causing problems then the drill I was doing where they play to your bh half but randomly redirect parallel, that trains you to watch the wrist and bat of the partner. One middle - one either side is also a perception drill.

But probably the simplest and most effective thing is just to play bh - bh rallies, but very slowly. And force yourself to move into position for every ball, and not to play until your feet are set and your racquet is inside your body. Make it slow enough that you have plenty of time for that, and easy enough to 99% focus on moving. Do that much longer than you think is really necessary, until you can't stand it any more and are losing your mind. Then still do another 30,000 balls the same way. After that try gradually picking up the difficulty and see if you still move first and get set before playing.

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2022, 10:40 
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BRS wrote:
It is difficult. There are a million exercises to practice that footwork because it isn't really any different for pips. Like inverted players can play okay backhands from weird arm positions, but good players try really hard not to have to do that.


Thanks for the suggestions! You are right, I have the same issue when playing with inverted, so it's good to practice this.

BRS wrote:
You and your son could do the one where you face each other a couple feet apart in a playing stance and throw a ball back and forth only catching it with your playing hand, and moving the location randomly a few inches every time.


I like this exercise because I wouldn't need to go to a TT venue.

BRS wrote:
But probably the simplest and most effective thing is just to play bh - bh rallies, but very slowly. And force yourself to move into position for every ball, and not to play until your feet are set and your racquet is inside your body. Make it slow enough that you have plenty of time for that, and easy enough to 99% focus on moving. Do that much longer than you think is really necessary, until you can't stand it any more and are losing your mind. Then still do another 30,000 balls the same way. After that try gradually picking up the difficulty and see if you still move first and get set before playing.


You make it sound like a chore, but I guess it's the way to go since I want to improve my BH in general and playing with SP in particular. I plan to play as many tournaments with SP as possible, which should give me more ideas regarding what areas to focus on.


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