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Dr.Pivot
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 12:47 
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Richfs wrote:

Speaking from my own experience when I've served with less spin - it's just easier for my opponent to flick or push the serve short, I haven't experienced that it helps disguise my heavier serve. So I always aim to serve with max spin, unless I serve nospin. Also for topspin serves it might help to add more sidespin so the serve doesn't kick long for the opponent to topspin, but I still think in general it isn't a good idea to serve with less spin, I believe serving with variation of the type of spin in combination with nospin to be more useful.


Completely agree, that was also my experience.

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maurice101
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 16:46 
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Charmander defender, this thread is about improving our game using the techniques on ttedge.com. I fail to see how discussing how good the Chinese table tennis players are adds anything to this discussion.

Perhaps start a new thread on this area?
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Pongalong
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 17:32 
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Sorry, I'm still not convinced. You're saying people (should) only use max spin and no spin. That makes it harder to get deception (which is more important than just heavy spin) - it's much easier to deceive with small variations in the strength of spin than between max and no spin. That small difference in spin will change the receiver's return by a few inches which is enough to get a slightly high push or a missed attack.

Personally I think I tend to do too much of what you are saying i.e. I kind of agree with you. When the opponent doesn't get tricked I say to myself that I'm not good enough to disguise such a big difference in spin, so I should try for smaller variations, especially as I rely heavily on third ball attack.
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Brett Clarke
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 21:21 
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charmander defender wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
charmander defender wrote:
I got an excellent coach now.The key to a decent topspin is ,in my opinion , the rotation of the body, the rotation of the shoulder- you have to face the ball rotating the body,rotating the shoulder; the timing for the ball- do not approach the ball with your hands,which is precisely what most players do at an amateur level- , the footwork- move sideways and flexing- and to do this consistently at any age is so difficult, hence lots of hours in training sessions .

The Chinese being the best in the world, not only do they have the best coaches but they also train more than the rest of the world.This is the key to the Chinese success.Also, the Chinese discipline for children is a bonus.Let´s say a parent chooses tt for their child as he / she is so enthusiastic .If you impose the Chinese discipline for the European children, most of them will stop playing.

We will all die at some point and the Chinese will continue to dominate tt.The Japanese seem to be getting very close but not close enough yet .

A pro in Europe usually trains in 2 sessions per day. Can you guess how many sessions do the Chinese have? try to do some research, you will be amazed.The Chinese dream about tt,have breakfast with tt, have lunch with tt, have dinner with tt 24/7.The same thing when you wanted to chat up your wife, you did everything possible to get her :lol: :lol: :lol:


It's great that you are happy with your coach charmander. TT is much more interesting when you are working on your game.

Someone significant in tt asked me an interesting question the other day - If you removed every coach from China, what would happen to level of China? Would they still be the best? The guy wasn't really asking me a question, rather he wanted to start a conversation to discuss his opinion and theories.

If you removed every cricket coach in India, would they start losing to Fiji? If you removed every basketball coach in the USA, would they start losing to Indonesia, Vietnam & Cambodia? If you removed every AFL coach in Australia, would we start losing to PNG?

China has 30 million TT players and Australia has 7000. Germany has 700,000, France 300,000. My point is that the size of the pyramid is a significant and underrated factor. Sweden has 10,000 players when they were beating China and I find that very interesting.

I believe that people sometimes overrated the importance of coaches, though there is such a thing as a decent coach.


Hi, Brett ! maybe this video can add some interesting facts to the discussion on China's Supremacy in tt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Rr_vvGsaA


They are all good points. Most countries are missing many of these factors.

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Brett Clarke
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 21:26 
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chopblock wrote:
Among other things, I have been practicing BH topspin vs backspin. For some reason, the advice to squat and straighten the back works better for me than the advice to squat and thrust (although they're supposed to mean the same thing).

It seems that I can use my body better than previously for this shot. Today, I tried to delay my backswing, but I wasn't able to do so -- it's difficult to change habits.

https://youtu.be/icnYAIy9rfw


I like the shot

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Brett Clarke
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 21:36 
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Dr.Pivot wrote:
I have been working on my BH vs. backspin a bit too. I really like how @chopblock can keep his arm structure firm against backspin. I have a tendency to collapse my arm structure when facing heavy spin and I am afraid it causes inconsistency under pressure.

BTW, I am playing with Mercury II on my BH now.



This shot reminds me of Samsonov in this video https://youtu.be/Xn10X3T2Lug?t=54 So how bad can it be?

I would however encourage you to adopt a more static and stable elbow position so can start behind the ball and quickly whip your wrist/fingers down and up as the ball is closer to you. This means you'll have a more consistent swing. And yes, it would result in a much shorter swing.

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Richfs
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 21:56 
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Pongalong wrote:
Sorry, I'm still not convinced. You're saying people (should) only use max spin and no spin. That makes it harder to get deception (which is more important than just heavy spin) - it's much easier to deceive with small variations in the strength of spin than between max and no spin. That small difference in spin will change the receiver's return by a few inches which is enough to get a slightly high push or a missed attack.

Personally I think I tend to do too much of what you are saying i.e. I kind of agree with you. When the opponent doesn't get tricked I say to myself that I'm not good enough to disguise such a big difference in spin, so I should try for smaller variations, especially as I rely heavily on third ball attack.


I think we have different ideas of deception. It's just my experience that at least the players I play against now and I don't tend to get deceived when someone serves (usually accidentally) with less spin. It's instantly noticeable and intuitive that there's less spin on the ball, like I said the flight of the ball is easier to read and so you have more options. In addition what makes serves often hard to read is that the serve action happens extremely fast, therefore you miss the contact point. The contact point is much easier to read for a serve with less spin because to serve with less spin you'd have to slow down the serve action - giving your opponent more time to see the contact point.

I think I'm repeating myself :). I think you should do what works best for you, you can experiment with it! I'm just giving my experience and what works for me.
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charmander defender
PostPosted: 22 May 2021, 22:55 
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maurice101 wrote:
Charmander defender, this thread is about improving our game using the techniques on ttedge.com. I fail to see how discussing how good the Chinese table tennis players are adds anything to this discussion.

Perhaps start a new thread on this area?


Sorry,I just wanted to add some intresting facts on a topic that came up regarding the technique on the fh topspin .My sincere apologies :angel:
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iskandar taib
PostPosted: 23 May 2021, 21:35 
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Pongalong wrote:
Brett, I'm puzzled by what you said a month ago about you always serving at maximum spin. Wouldn't that remove your disguise of the amount of spin? As long as the opponent could tell what direction the spin was i.e. backspin versus topspin, they would quickly learn the strength of your spin (for each different type of serve).


You assume the opponent can tell the direction of spin. This might be true for world class players, but for anyone of a lower level - let me tell you, having experienced Brett's serve first hand, it's nigh on impossible.. :lol: What you thought was backspin would sail off into the wild blue yonder, what you thought was topspin ends up in the net, if you guessed backspin correctly it has so much spin on it it still ends up in the net. Out of twenty serves or so I didn't get one back.

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Pongalong
PostPosted: 23 May 2021, 23:39 
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Yep, it's true for anyone playing someone of a similar level, which is what we should be talking about. I'll give you an example - say I'm doing a backspin, or pendulum with back/side, max spin is made by max forearm and wrist movement, lesser spin means backing off on the wrist (and maybe hitting the ball closer to the handle). Hopefully the opponent won't notice this subtle change, whereas if I instead tried for a no spin ball, it'd be obvious.

Iskandar, what level are you, preferably Ratings Central? Just trying to get a feel for Brett's serve.

That comment about hitting near the handle reminds me - what's with this thing I've seen plenty of times on youtube about hitting the ball on the upper part of the bat for less backspin, surely that makes no difference and the only way to increase or lessen spin is by the tip or near the handle (12 o'clock and 6 o'clock, rather than 3 (upper) and 9 (lower). 3 and 9 are for right handers forehands, swap them for lefties or backhand).
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maurice101
PostPosted: 24 May 2021, 05:42 
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I have a lot of trouble picking Brett's no spin to his backspin serve. And that is when he tells me he is only doing these 2 serves. The bat whip speed is so fast and compact its hard to read. I have to also pick up on ball spin through the air.

On another note I have been practicing his fast no spin serve. He told me that this is one of his most effective serves at his level. I find it very effective at my lower level too. :) Wide or to the elbow is very effective.

My serves have really improved 100 percent by focusing on no drift and fast whip against the body coming forward. I try to do 10 minutes a day practice and even this has ingrained new movement patterns.

Brett mentioned that there is a point in the amount of spin in a serve that will cause problems to people receiving the serve. I take this to mean that if your serves are not causing issues in receiving then you need to get good technique to raise the spin level.

I feel improving your serves is the easiest way to raise your level in a short time compared to general play.


Last edited by maurice101 on 24 May 2021, 06:36, edited 1 time in total.

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charmander defender
PostPosted: 24 May 2021, 06:17 
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maurice101 wrote:
I feel improving your serves is the easiest way to raise your level in a short time compared to general play.


I do agree with you.However,I am a firmly believer in the fact that mastering service returns is much better than having good services. A great service is fantastic , of course , but if you do make mistakes when reading the opponent's service you will lose easy points whereas not always can you get easy points from a good service.At least , thi is what I have learnt in my experience .

Also,a good player that masters the art of pushing with backspin or no spin will go far in this sport. Even at pro levels many great players misread the push and either send the ball long or leave a high ball to be attacked easily.This strategy has yielded many points to me , especailly at 10-10 and 11-10 :lol:
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maurice101
PostPosted: 24 May 2021, 06:39 
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Charmander defender, i agree with your point about the importance of service return. My point that it is much easier to really improve your serve compared to improving your service return.
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charmander defender
PostPosted: 24 May 2021, 07:20 
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maurice101 wrote:
Charmander defender, i agree with your point about the importance of service return. My point that it is much easier to really improve your serve compared to improving your service return.


Yes , you are very right !! :up: :rock: , for example, only after watching lots of videos and also my coach showing me the correct way over and over again was I able to understand how to return heavy backspin serves with the inverted whereas it was very easy for me to improve my serves.

I did notice that when returning serves, for example to your fh side, the footwork is first plus the forearm approaching the ball rather than the blade .Fh side services are good , especially backspin ones as people tend to push better with the bh side rather than the fh side . :rock:
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wilkinru
PostPosted: 24 May 2021, 11:16 
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hi. :Chop:

This anti-drift idea is pretty interesting. Timo is a grand master at it and you can see lots of players not using it and still have success.

Moving the racket forward during the straightening is a little counter intuitive but it is 100% what Timo does and takes such a keen eye to see that little detail. Bravo Brett.
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