OOAK Table Tennis Forum

A guy who was teaching members to play backhand topspin against backspin. It's still what I teach today too...squat and thrust.

I used to think that the basic mechanic is the same on both shots (against backspin/topspin).

First of all, wow. Thank you everyone for looking at my video. I never expected my post to create this much discussion. But I'm really happy it did because I feel like I've learned so much reading what everyone has written. I've read it all at least 3 times. I get the feeling my understanding has suddenly jumped a level or two. Though in reality, I'm sure it's the opposite haha. I'm glad you decided to elaborate on my video, Brett. Thank you.

I want to comment a little about my backhand. I'm just going to say random things, so if something is off, or if you think you can address the issue, feel free to let me know

I've always considered my swing a little too short. I've been trying to make it longer like NL mentioned. I always felt like I could get it closer to my body on the backswing. But it didn't matter how I tried, I really struggled to do it. Maybe my swing is already big enough like Brett mentioned. Maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe I just need to suck it up and try to get it even closer to my body. Today I tried having my elbow further out than usual. The idea was that if I did that, I'd have more room to backswing. It kind of worked but I felt like I had to tighten my upper arm muscles too much to keep it that far forward, so I stopped after awhile. It was an interesting experiment for sure.

As for my momentum generator, it is definitely the knees and hips. My stroke feels like it starts with me storing energy into my legs as I bend my knees. My arm feels like it's swinging forward with the momentum of my legs as I spring up off the ground a little. I've always found it hard to 'unbow' from my torso against block or topspin. It felt really unnatural whenever I tried. I felt like my arm naturally wanted to go up whenever I did, which usually also meant my racket angle was too open on contact. I think that's why I've ended up with this style. When it comes to underspin though, it felt really natural to unbow since I needed the upwards momentum of an open racket to lift the ball. That's probably why in the video I linked awhile back of me opening against underspin, I usually had my back straight after the stroke.

That said, I'm always willing to try new things, and especially now I have the opportunity to practice with a robot. Something that I've always wanted to do because with actual practice partners, I could never take it slow and actually examine my stroke to try and change or fix things.

Today after I woke up in the morning, I read all that was posted at that time (about half of what has currently been posted) and spent a bunch of time thinking about it. I then went to school and tried a few things out. My initial goal was to add unbowing since a lot of people mentioned the torso and also to try and make my stroke bigger. After awhile I found it too difficult to fix both at once, so I just went with the unbowing. My setup was as follows:

1. Record 2 20 second sessions. 2 because after the first 20 seconds I could think about how it felt and change something based on the feeling of what I was doing.
2. Watch the 2 sessions and think about what I want to change based on what I saw.
3. Repeat 1 and 2.

I did this 14 times because I felt like I got it right on one of the balls. One of the balls just felt right. I felt like my unbowing came perfectly to explode my arm forward. A lot of the shots looked similar on video, but that one also had the feeling of everything working in unison. Once I got the feeling of that one ball, I was able to concentrate on replicating it, and within 1 or 2 more sets, I felt like I had it down pretty well. Maybe half the balls had that feeling. I still have my knees driving the momentum I feel, but I definitely think the upper body is now contributing. What do you guys think?

I'll link the videos in the order that I took them.

Side View (I put that very first time I felt like I got it kind of right at the start of the video):
https://youtu.be/PPAairjSO5k

Diagonal View:
https://youtu.be/eLbEA1sTC_o

Front View:
https://youtu.be/iILEMBK1W3c

I still feel like I need to work on the swing size. It feels a little small. I'll work on going more forward to make it bigger.

Once again, any advice greatly appreciated.

P.S. Sorry about the long post.

First of all, wow. Thank you everyone for looking at my video. I never expected my post to create this much discussion. But I'm really happy it did because I feel like I've learned so much reading what everyone has written. I've read it all at least 3 times. I get the feeling my understanding has suddenly jumped a level or two. Though in reality, I'm sure it's the opposite haha. I'm glad you decided to elaborate on my video, Brett. Thank you.

I want to comment a little about my backhand. I'm just going to say random things, so if something is off, or if you think you can address the issue, feel free to let me know

I've always considered my swing a little too short. I've been trying to make it longer like NL mentioned. I always felt like I could get it closer to my body on the backswing. But it didn't matter how I tried, I really struggled to do it. Maybe my swing is already big enough like Brett mentioned. Maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe I just need to suck it up and try to get it even closer to my body. Today I tried having my elbow further out than usual. The idea was that if I did that, I'd have more room to backswing. It kind of worked but I felt like I had to tighten my upper arm muscles too much to keep it that far forward, so I stopped after awhile. It was an interesting experiment for sure.

As for my momentum generator, it is definitely the knees and hips. My stroke feels like it starts with me storing energy into my legs as I bend my knees. My arm feels like it's swinging forward with the momentum of my legs as I spring up off the ground a little. I've always found it hard to 'unbow' from my torso against block or topspin. It felt really unnatural whenever I tried. I felt like my arm naturally wanted to go up whenever I did, which usually also meant my racket angle was too open on contact. I think that's why I've ended up with this style. When it comes to underspin though, it felt really natural to unbow since I needed the upwards momentum of an open racket to lift the ball. That's probably why in the video I linked awhile back of me opening against underspin, I usually had my back straight after the stroke.

That said, I'm always willing to try new things, and especially now I have the opportunity to practice with a robot. Something that I've always wanted to do because with actual practice partners, I could never take it slow and actually examine my stroke to try and change or fix things.

Today after I woke up in the morning, I read all that was posted at that time (about half of what has currently been posted) and spent a bunch of time thinking about it. I then went to school and tried a few things out. My initial goal was to add unbowing since a lot of people mentioned the torso and also to try and make my stroke bigger. After awhile I found it too difficult to fix both at once, so I just went with the unbowing. My setup was as follows:

1. Record 2 20 second sessions. 2 because after the first 20 seconds I could think about how it felt and change something based on the feeling of what I was doing.
2. Watch the 2 sessions and think about what I want to change based on what I saw.
3. Repeat 1 and 2.

I did this 14 times because I felt like I got it right on one of the balls. One of the balls just felt right. I felt like my unbowing came perfectly to explode my arm forward. A lot of the shots looked similar on video, but that one also had the feeling of everything working in unison. Once I got the feeling of that one ball, I was able to concentrate on replicating it, and within 1 or 2 more sets, I felt like I had it down pretty well. Maybe half the balls had that feeling. I still have my knees driving the momentum I feel, but I definitely think the upper body is now contributing. What do you guys think?

I'll link the videos in the order that I took them.

Side View (I put that very first time I felt like I got it kind of right at the start of the video):
https://youtu.be/PPAairjSO5k

Diagonal View (First one also felt like everyone worked together well):
https://youtu.be/eLbEA1sTC_o

Front View:
https://youtu.be/iILEMBK1W3c

I still feel like I need to work on the swing size. It feels a little small. I'll work on going more forward to make it bigger.

Once again, any advice greatly appreciated.

P.S. Sorry about the long post.

Is this a backhand block or a backhand topspin shove?

https://youtu.be/4YeAlvs2T4w?t=18

Hey, mickd, thanks for being a good sport about all this. Not easy being the center of attention.

I think the FV is a massive improvement over what I saw before, so maybe it is just a camera angle thing.

To improve your backhand arm swing, I would recommend you take a step back (not literally - I mean go back to basics and not be so advanced with your spin stroke) and try to stop using the wrist and just swing more from the elbow. MAke sure the forearm and racket starts almost pointing towards your body with the elbow pointing towards where you want to hit the ball. This is an exaggeration of what you are looking for and will feel extremely uncomfortable at first. Later you can return the elbow to the side and line up the swing more comfortably. Then the wrist is just icing on the cake.

That said, you do have good swing and body mechanics. My concern is may be misguided but when I see people swing the way you did at the ball in the first video I suspect things will fall apart in matches. The elbow and lower arm just have to do more work to guide the direction of stroke or there is nothing to put the ball where you want it when you get surprised by where the ball is placed and then people get stuck just waving at the ball in matches.

Mick, you are a seriously good sport for showing up today after reading all those posts.

I watched the front view a few times and that is a fine shot. There is a little more bowing/folding-unfolding going on. Again, I don't think it's completely essential that you unfold because I've what I've been trying to convey. It's completely legitimate to stay over the ball and straighten your knees. Do what you are most comfortable doing. I think the arm is doing the right thing.

This is my "natural" backhand.

https://youtu.be/B6bpbVVGPZk?t=771

I always feel jealous when I see complete forehands with full knee, hip and body usage etc. I basically feel like I have to backhands, one on the forehand side and one on the backhand side.