OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Anything new on tactics?

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Tactics Enthusiast

I filmed some more serves today and I think they are a bit better though I'm never happy.

In relation to tactics, I have a tip. If your opponent can't smash, just lob every ball up high. It will be great for your game and development and you should get an easy win. Is that what you were fishing for? Are you happy now?

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Not really. On a serious note, I recently watched some videos where folks suggest for the amateur players to use simple serves most of the time. Their logic is that some very enthusiastic amateurs develop strong serves that have a ton of spin, often with heavy sidespin. If the opponent cannot return them, great. But if those serves do come back, even passive returns are difficult to attack because of the residual spin, which leads to errors. So they suggest using very simple backspin/no-spin serves and concentrate on getting it low and short, instead of focusing on generating spin. As the result, the return should have a simpler trajector and be easier to attack with a topspin. I don't know if it makes sense, but I wish I could try this idea.

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Tactics Enthusiast

I understand the theory and I don't really like it.

I think you should have good serves and then work on your 3rd ball.

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I actually took a 50 point tournament loss exactly this way. It was at lakeland vs one of the FL State NCTTA team kids. So ten of his teammates were screaming "Noooooooooooooolessss!!!" [FL State Seminoles] all through the match, cheering for every smash I missed. If I had a gun with me none of them would have graduated.

As with all tactics-based losses it was good for me in the long run. I worked a lot on smashing afterwards.

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Yoko Ono

Isn't this a tactical decision? I mean it is standard advice vs LP BH not to serve sidespin into the pipses. But even vs inverted if they are returning your sidespin serves so well that you can't open, maybe you should try changing up your serves. Or you could just keep doing the same thing until you lose, always an option.

That assumes you are trying to win of course. If it's a training match to work on your 3rd ball then whatever.

Some peeps talk about using all your {competent} serves in the first set vs an unknown opponent to find out what patterns you get into. What do you think about that idea?

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

It is a tactical decision but is not black and white like I can't open after heavy sidespin serve. It is like after heavy sidespin serve I might land my first topspin on the table in 60% of the points, but after a simple serve in 80% because the return is simpler, hence it makes more sense to use a simpler serve [that is the logic]. I don't know if it is going to work for me, but I heard this suggestion many more times than I can remember, both from local coaches in person and from YouTube videos.



It makes sense but is usually my emergency scenario. My regular game is very robotic: serve reverse, loop with forehand. If this scheme does not work against an unfamiliar opponent, I start throwing everything I have and see what sticks.

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Tactics Enthusiast

Sounds like advanced tactics to me. I tend to roundrobin through my various serves for no real reason, even if I am winning like 90% on one pattern, just because. Which is stupid. I should probably serve short backspin/nospin every point until they make me stop.

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

On Dr. Pivot's serve question:

I think a lot of TT goes back to your training. I remember the two juniors that I developed my game with in my club - one of them had a very strong pendulum sidespin serve. Players struggled to return it well, and he initially sometimes couldn't attack consistently behind it when they returned it either badly or well. But he worked on it, he got better at attacking behind it, and then a time came when he and his coach worked so hard on it that if you didn't return it properly, you just lost the point outright on the third ball behind it.

The other junior had lousy serves and just served straight no spin up to a point and learned to work harder to play through points, even though his third ball behind that serve was strong. Then he worked on his serves later and started playing better behind certain serves.

In my experience, I think the way Dr Pivot is describing the advice (which I think I have also seen in Korean videos) doesn't give it enough nuance. The truth is that quality serves invite quality returns and as BRS said, you have to see what is working. If you are serving low heavy backspin which your opponent is pushing really well, and which you are struggling to attack behind, should you continue to do so because the spin on the serve is high?

The advice, as I understand it, is not to serve with your heaviest spin on every serve. It is really a request for variation especially if you can't play with quality behind your heaviest spin serve. Because your heaviest spin may also give your opponent heavy return quality. It is good to change that spin so that the opponent and you can deal with lighter balls sometimes if they misread them. But if your opponent is missing the return just because they can't handle the serve, or you are struggling in practice and matches to attack behind your serve, of course, you should have the option to adjust the quality or nature of the serve to get a different return.

But as always, it all goes back to what you practice. From personal experience, I have had matches where my sidespin serves get pushed and flicked in ways that make me look like an idiot. And when I reduce the spin on those serves, the same opponent pops the ball up or pushes wide off the table. In table tennis, doing the same thing all the time unless you practice so much it doesn't matter can be pretty challenging to maintain.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

My strategy is to serve approximately 75% of serves short to the forehand and then mix in some long ones to make sure the opponent can't simply return short or banana the short ones. My long serve is above the average level. The opponent will always be worried about the long stuff so they'll back off just enough to not be able to return short. Then I'll get all the easy 3rd ball opportunities that I need. I rarely deviated from this strategy because it's "well balanced" and will work optimally against you and Ma Long. I would never start serving "simple serves" under any circumstance. It's bad for my game and certainly my overall results.

Here's my response to this entire conversation. Serving simple "works" because it results in less expectation and more focus. In other words, when you serve crap, you expect the ball to come back, so your 3rd ball is better. You also track the ball more because you know you have to play the next shot. You are ready for action!

If you have great serves, you'll tend zone out during and after your serve. It's like you focus so much on the serving action and spin that you go inside your head instead of using your eyes. You need to use your eyes in table tennis matches. The shots should be automatic, including the serve.

So here's what you need to do. After you serve, make a commitment to tracking the ball with you eyes shortly after it leaves your racket. You won't see it hit your racket, but you'll catch it somewhere on your own side of the table. Maintain a narrow focus on the ball both before and after your opponent strikes the ball. Congratulations, you just made a great serve with all the advantage of a crap serve.

The above is my biggest secret in table tennis. It's one of my only jobs in a match. I turn up to a match and that's almost all I'm thinking about. I don't care what happens in the match, as long as I track my own serve, I'll go home happy. The advantages of this type of focus are endless.

I'm not a pro player or an amateur. I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle. When I play a 1500, I'm a pro. When I play a 3000, I'm an amateur. It doesn't matter how good you are, you should still play good shots immediately. Playing a bad shot so you can play better one on the next shot is a never ending cycle or negativity. Where does it all end?

This is a really interesting discussion btw. I'm just sharing my own experience and perspective here.

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Good post Laj.

I personally never adjust the amount of spin I put on a serve. Every single serve I serve has my maximum spin, for better or for worse. The exception is my no spin serve, which never has any spin. I rarely use my no spin serve for various reasons these days, including I hate it when my opponent banana flicks.

Say I'm serving a Pundulum side/back serve and the guy pushes it short and heavy like god. My next serve is going to be short side/topspsin with max spin and I'll hope the opponent tries to push it short again. I'm not going to do a short back/side with half as much spin. Or I might serve a long serve into his backhand/middle because even god can't be in two places at once. If he's good enough to be in early to return my short serve short, maybe he's just moving in really early and I'm going to make him look silly by serving long. Anyway my long serve will again have my maximum spin. It will never be 1/2, 3/4 or 1/3.

A good question is, should Brett use a randomizer to decide which serves he does, or should he consider game flow and short term tactics? At the moment I decide what spin should be on the ball based on the previous points and gut feeling. I'm currently thinking tactically about my serve selection. I serve mostly short, but those serves have different spins. I make it all up on the spot and some of that decision is based on fear. OMG, he flicked one of my serves so I can't do that serve again. But is one good return a proper sample size? Maybe the guy just got lucky, right? Maybe he actually hates that serve and he's thrilled that he won't have to see it again. Maybe a particular serve would hurt him more at 10-10.

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Your backspin/nospin serve is your best serve and you should serve it most of the time. Serving worse serves for variation can be seriously problematic.

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Part 20 of ttEDGE 2021 is now available on ttEDGE.com

It's about the Punch serve and the anti drift concept which we've been discussing. This is one of my favorite videos because it's a breakthrough in my understanding.

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Thanks, Brett.

I used to serve my heaviest backspin serve when I was 1700-1800 or so. Then I played a guy who pushed the serve back to me and I couldn't loop it. I lost two games playing like this. Then I started serving less spin, he did the same push, and then I started looping the ball and came back to win. It then reminded me of a Brian Pace video where he talked about the weight of the serve influencing the weight of the return, which before then had never seriously entered my match strategy (maybe because my serves were just not that good and I used to serve mostly backhand serves back then).

To be honest, I don't serve that hard (other than whip mechanics), but my no-spin serves are just hitting the back edge of the paddle, no matter the original serve (could be punch, pendulum, reserve, backhand etc. - I just hit the back edge if I want to reduce the spin and still try to keep the whip mechanics).

But I have also played some serves which I can't attack behind (my knees might be the driver), but I sometimes serve my punch serve and the amount of side-back when pushed is so heavy that I often don't feel confident attacking behind it. And sometimes, when I do, I predictably loop the ball into the forehand side when I really wish I could loop it to the backhand or the middle. I do think practice has something to do with it, but I can imagine what Dr P is going through when he serves something and he can't attack behind it because it is moving and heavy etc.

But I have heard pros say things like "serve high topspin" or "don't serve the ball low and short every time if you want to get bad returns as good players push those too well" and even you Brett point out that many people return some half long serves as if they are short, so some would argue that the best serve is the one that the opponent thinks is short and is going to go long because they will not be able to control the return.

That brings me to another story before I stop - I always lose to this guy who used to play for the Indian junior team years ago. And he has this low toss nasty backhand serve to the short forehand. Looks like backspin but it is really side top and he opens and I lose the point after the push.

But was it really short? One day, I realized that it would be really amazing if a serve that heavy really stayed short. So I just kept waiting for it instead of pushing it over the table. Led to one of the most gratifying wins.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Is this the only serve that is going to get this treatment? It would probably resonate more on a more common serve for most of us (pendulum, backspin/no-spin).

Why can't it be used on a backhand serve in some way?

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus