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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2022, 07:04 
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Having junior practice partners who loop a lot tends to make it easier to develop a style for handling the counterlooppers. Because once you are used to seeing and blocking those balls, the question is whether the looper can make three or four in a row. And if/when the looper does that, then you realize you need to stop blocking and step back and start smacking the ball as well. But I used to win against a lot of juniors and even adult loopers by letting them open on the forehand side and making the block to their backhand side. Not many people have good off the table backhand loops so that was often enough. Obviously those are somewhat capped tactics...

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2022, 07:07 
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So I have moved out of the North East to the South (Dallas area of TX). Still pretty much retired, but relatively no TT here I suspect. That said, if anyone wants to hang out and just waste time chatting, let me know. I am game.

Also trying to get back into Computer programming somewhat - will see how that goes...

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2022, 11:48 
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BRS wrote:
That's always a very peaceful feeling to realize Wow, this guy is way better than me. Pressure is gone.


I think this post is amazing.

I wish that it was possible to always have this mindset in tt. What is it about human evolution that makes losing so painful?

I should play some tournaments and deliberately lose almost every match I play without telling anyone what I'm doing. After a year of being a complete "loser" and realising that no one actually cares, then I should just casually start winning a few more matches. Maybe this would break the cycle of placing self-worth on results.

No one really admits this, though I know it's true. - Most elite players quit tt because constant losing impacted their life in a very negative way.

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2022, 12:03 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
BRS wrote:
That's always a very peaceful feeling to realize Wow, this guy is way better than me. Pressure is gone.


I think this post is amazing.

I wish that it was possible to always have this mindset in tt. What is it about human evolution that makes losing so painful?

I should play some tournaments and deliberately lose almost every match I play without telling anyone what I'm doing. After a year of being a complete "loser" and realising that no one actually cares, then I should just casually start winning a few more matches. Maybe this would break the cycle of placing self-worth on results.

No one really admits this, though I know it's true. - Most elite players quit tt because constant losing impacted their life in a very negative way.


It's a dog-eat-dog world out there. If you don't perform, you gotta take a back seat to the guys who do.

BRS is speaking about his hobby. I felt that way almost everytime I played a TT match where I was clearly the underdog.

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2022, 12:42 
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NextLevel wrote:
So I have moved out of the North East to the South (Dallas area of TX). Still pretty much retired, but relatively no TT here I suspect. That said, if anyone wants to hang out and just waste time chatting, let me know. I am game.

Also trying to get back into Computer programming somewhat - will see how that goes...


Good luck there Laj. Why don't you start a tt club?

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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2022, 14:29 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Most elite players quit tt because constant losing impacted their life in a very negative way.


I guess one day they discover TT forums where adult amateur players discuss their tactics. The resulting trauma is probably too deep to keep playing afterward.

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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2022, 20:02 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
BRS wrote:
That's always a very peaceful feeling to realize Wow, this guy is way better than me. Pressure is gone.


I think this post is amazing.

I wish that it was possible to always have this mindset in tt. What is it about human evolution that makes losing so painful?

I should play some tournaments and deliberately lose almost every match I play without telling anyone what I'm doing. After a year of being a complete "loser" and realising that no one actually cares, then I should just casually start winning a few more matches. Maybe this would break the cycle of placing self-worth on results.

No one really admits this, though I know it's true. - Most elite players quit tt because constant losing impacted their life in a very negative way.


One of my teammates really hates to lose. So much that he quit TT when he was around 13, then picked it up again many years later. He still hates to lose, so much that it makes me hate to lose to him. His playstyle makes it worse - serving long most of the time so failing to win against that feels worse. It amazes me how much emotion I feel in a best of 3 training match against this guy, when I play any of my other teammates I'm more indifferent to the loss, though I do want to win. Pretty sure losing to this guy feels worse than losing matches in the league as well.

Another talented teammate I had back in England also quit because he couldn't stand losing. He would start to play in a way that made it seemed like he wasn't trying, he'd go back and fish or attempt lots of silly shots. He did that so much that it sort of became his playstyle, so he'd lose more. But at least then he'd have an "excuse" to ease the burden of losing. I've also done this when I've played badly and thought "why try when it isn't making a difference". Terrible mindset.

Like NL mentioned a while back, it seems to me that it is our perspectives tied to losing that is driving the negative emotions. I've put a fair amount of effort into improving my game, I've really wanted to improve. My teammate lives off a few strengths but has many weaknesses and puts little effort into improving. So somehow I create this picture in my mind that I deserve to win more and if I fail, what does that say about my efforts to improve? And his attitude towards losing makes it worse, as he appears to think that it's a big deal to lose to me. Should it be a big deal to lose to me when I have a relatively more well developed game and put more hours in at the table?

This is a simplified version of it, I guess. I feel like I have this narrative running at the back of my head even though his attitude towards losing never had to do with me. And in the second case, I can imagine people could easily think that guy or when I've played that way on a few occasions, that we're arrogant. And many people did think that guy was arrogant, even though I knew his issues were from other things.

But knowing these things don't seem to make much of a difference, in the moment things are the way they are. So is the recognition of that the way to go, i.e. mindfulness? And then shift the attention towards imagery and things you can do to win the following point?

And I'm speaking about all of this at hobby level, knowing that gives perspective but still doesn't do anything in the heat of the moment. At pro level for some players the pressure must be insane.


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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2022, 01:34 
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I think the attitude to losing is highly individual and includes way too many factors. Peer pressure, personal history, and many other things. Everybody is different. Sometimes it is the administrative side of things like tournament organization. Imagine you live in the middle of nowhere, get bored of playing the same people over and over. So you are excited to get some new TT experience and register for a large tournament relatively nearby. You drive for 8 hours, pay expensive entry fees, book a hotel, etc, etc. But it is a huge tournament, and it is hard to keep it on time, so it is basically single elimination from the get-go. And then you get knocked from your main event immediately because of whatever (playing someone underrated, funky style, etc). Game over, go back to playing the same 3.5 players for the next 6 months. Even if you are a super chill amateur playing for fun you will start to hate losing, at least in the rated events.

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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2022, 01:35 
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Let's talk about straightening legs during a point. What is your way of combating this?

This is my personal pet peeve, as I often find myself standing up straight in the middle of a rally. People sometimes tell me that when this happens, it looks like I am uncertain whether my shot will land on the table and turn into a spectator. As the result, I lose track of the point and become unprepared for the next shot. I feel like the culprit is reaching a moment in a point where I don't believe I can make it on the table. Sometimes it is absurd: I am playing insanely well, can't believe it, get lost, and stand up straight.

After watching some old matches, I noticed that when I was in better shape with lots of recent competitive matches played I was much better at staying low, especially during long points. I think the reason was that I was used to playing long points, it was the norm, nothing unusual. I did stand up straight from time to time, but it was much rare.

On the other hand, the pandemic and travel-related breaks ruined my ability to play points that last more than one topspin shot. When I got back from all the breaks I had, I could serve and loop heavy almost as well as before. Same consistency and quality. But hitting the next shot was nearly impossible, with lots of silly mistakes. Playing a rally with >5 topspin shots feels like entering a different reality. I recently played a match where I entered a counter looping rally and made an insanely good shot. I could not believe it and stood up straight immediately just to watch like a spectator. Needless to say, I lost the point because I could not hit the next loop.

As I am slowly getting back into shape, the second topspin is coming back as well, and I play longer points more often. So I try to remind myself to believe that I will not miss no matter what and should always be ready to rally hard no matter what happens. But I feel like the only cure is actually being exposed to longer points in matches so that they don't feel like anything unusual.

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Last edited by Dr.Pivot on 27 Jan 2022, 01:38, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2022, 01:37 
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BTW, it is really difficult to catch a pro standing up straight due to uncertainty in a match. But I believe that this is exactly what happened to Ma Long at the point starting at 6:31 (right after his first block). What do you think?


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PostPosted: 03 Feb 2022, 07:49 
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On another topic. I did notice on my last training session I got back 3 edge balls that I would never have got back a while ago. I feel that is the result of delaying the backswing will the last moment gives me a little extra time to react to edge balls. I assume I should be better at responding to loops with side spin too.


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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2022, 01:52 
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maurice101 wrote:
On another topic. I did notice on my last training session I got back 3 edge balls that I would never have got back a while ago. I feel that is the result of delaying the backswing will the last moment gives me a little extra time to react to edge balls. I assume I should be better at responding to loops with side spin too.


Well, it is good you can do that! I could never delay FH swings: I bought into the idea of the largest swing possible given the situation, so I often start early for a bigger shot. Even if I consciously want to play a smaller one.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2022, 11:35 
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Yes the delay is much easier to do on the backhand. One answer for some players is to use the delay in a forehand mini loop when you lack time to rotate fully and to keep the standard forehand when you have more time for a full rotation. I think I see some pros doing this.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2022, 04:22 
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On Bretts pendulum serve. If you have ever had to receive Bretts pendulum serve, they are super spiny, double bounce and also are fast. i was thinking about this and had the realization about the mechanics. I think you need to separate the mechanics to get the speed of the ball and also the spin of the ball.

The body coming forward and stamping on the spider creates the speed of the serve.
The wrist just does a fast compact whip action with the forehand stopping so the wrist whips through.

So I have in my head that the arm just focuses on the spin generation and the body creates the forward momentum of the serve.

Its a bit like the forehand. A faster body rotation allows a faster ball with a relaxed arm.

Trying to create speed by focusing on the arm just creates tension and lack of spin.

Now I know why Brett said in the lesson to stamp on the spider harder.

The whip action is short and fast making it hard to read the serve. As the whip action is fast you need to start it later as the body is moving forward. Delay the backswing is needed.

Comments ???


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2022, 11:50 
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maurice101 wrote:
On Bretts pendulum serve. If you have ever had to receive Bretts pendulum serve, they are super spiny, double bounce and also are fast. i was thinking about this and had the realization about the mechanics. I think you need to separate the mechanics to get the speed of the ball and also the spin of the ball.

The body coming forward and stamping on the spider creates the speed of the serve.
The wrist just does a fast compact whip action with the forehand stopping so the wrist whips through.

So I have in my head that the arm just focuses on the spin generation and the body creates the forward momentum of the serve.

Its a bit like the forehand. A faster body rotation allows a faster ball with a relaxed arm.

Trying to create speed by focusing on the arm just creates tension and lack of spin.

Now I know why Brett said in the lesson to stamp on the spider harder.

The whip action is short and fast making it hard to read the serve. As the whip action is fast you need to start it later as the body is moving forward. Delay the backswing is needed.

Comments ???


Everything you said is probably right.

Although I think Brett said once when he was a kid he used to practice serving for hours at a time. And never stop until a cruel club manager would throw him out of the hall. Understanding mechanics is very good, but all the hours may be more responsible for his serve quality.

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