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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2020, 22:53 
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You should get sponsored by Yinhe. Show up head to toe in Yinhe gear. That would be awesome.

True story: I went to Tyson's Thursday night and he had switched back to viscaria from his Xiom ice cream blade (alc/zlc 2 * dignics 05). I asked why and he said control, he lands balls he knows would miss with the xiom blade Then Tyson said "I do miss the real kill shot power on my bh with the viscaria though. But I maybe lose 3 points from my bh not being as powerful, and win 7 from making fewer errors." I said FZD uses viscaria and he gets enough power to kill bhs, maybe it's a technique thing.

The only note of caution I would put up against your slow setup manifesto is for old guys with bad form, like me. If I am used to using T05 or G1, say, and getting a certain amount of power from swinging my arm at the ball with no body in it, going slower and trying to generate equivalent power with my swing will cause an injury. And that is the only true nightmare scenario, not being able to play. So many readers may be making a rational choice to play worse with faster equipment, as a health and safety measure.

I'm curious what you consider the upper limit of not too fast in a rubber? Does it have to be chinese?

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 01:09 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
I have been thinking a lot about equipment and I've also been testing. I've said some of this stuff before and I think I'll go again with extra enthusiasm.

...

If you find it more fun to play with fast equipment then you should ignore this post.


It all makes sense. But is Ma Long's H3 really that slow? I remember watching an interview with Ferenc Karsai and he said that those H3 rubbers that CNT players use are very fast, maybe even faster than Tenergy. I never played with Ma Long's racket, though, so I obviously can't confirm it. I used to play with the "national" H3 for some time, and with some boosting it was almost as fast as german rubbers on loops. Probably if you boost it more with those magic Chinese oils it will be even faster.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 01:27 
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Barfly wrote:
Every advice I have taken from ttedge has been pure gold so I want to copy your equipment advice to the letter and I have 2 more questions please:

1. I see that Huieson K3 is a 7 ply carbon blade so probably too fast for me; what classic blades do you recommend to your students?
Would Korbel or Primorac be acceptable or should we go even slower to allround territory like Stiga Allround Classic or Grubba, Appelgren Allplay etc?

2. What hardness levels should we aim for in chinese rubbers you recommend - I can see 3 hardness levels for example in Mercury2:
New Hardness Scale SOFT MEDIUM HARD
Old Hardness Scale 33-35 36-38 39-41


What would be best choice for low level aspiring amateurs like me, I am just a bit worried that going with too hard chinese rubber will make it hard to create arc, especially on backhand and put anything on the table, but perhaps that is the point in order to force body use more?

Thank you for your help!


I use Big Dipper Black H39 (2.2mm) and Mercury 2 Medium. To be honest, I don't think there is much difference in some of these hardnesses etc. I've tried all of the Mercury 2 hardnesses and the differences are pretty subtle. I settled on medium because it's the most common and easiest to order, plus it feels fine.

In relation to the blade, I think it's a reverse scam. They say it's carbon but it's really just a funny looking layer and the blade isn't so fast, making it very usable.

Those BTY blades that you mentioned are fine. Korbel and Primorac etc are all good. I think if you are going to use slower rubber, then some of those allrounds you mentioned may be slightly too slow.

Again, why buy brands when you don't have to? Unless you want to pay for sponsored players?

In relation to your question about using the body more, please read my next post where I answer Mr. BRS. It's really the important part of this conversation.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 01:30 
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Karsai's interview. BTW, I really liked H3 and I contemplate going back. The only disadvantage for me was that I missed more against high topspin balls with it, but I hope my feeling/technique is better now so it should less of an issue.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 01:45 
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fastmover wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
I have been thinking a lot about equipment and I've also been testing. I've said some of this stuff before and I think I'll go again with extra enthusiasm.

...

If you find it more fun to play with fast equipment then you should ignore this post.


It all makes sense. But is Ma Long's H3 really that slow? I remember watching an interview with Ferenc Karsai and he said that those H3 rubbers that CNT players use are very fast, maybe even faster than Tenergy. I never played with Ma Long's racket, though, so I obviously can't confirm it. I used to play with the "national" H3 for some time, and with some boosting it was almost as fast as german rubbers on loops. Probably if you boost it more with those magic Chinese oils it will be even faster.


Chinese rubber is slow.

I think it's amazing that DHS (or someone) has been able to convince the world that 5 players are using a magic rubber. What good would it do a company to hide its best product? It's like me saying that I have an amazing forehand video, but I only show it to 3 people. How on earth would that help me? If they had a rubber that is faster than Tenergy, they'd be selling it to every EJ on the planet and they'd be worth more than Apple and Microsoft. Think about it.

I've also heard others say that ML's rubber is so hard that it's unusable for club players and that's why they don't sell it to EJs and keep it a secret. But I have personally hit with this "National" H3 boosted by a national player and it was the same as all other Chinese rubber. You need to generate your own power and it's still slow. Oh, and it splits every session when heavily boosted. They change it a lot because of quality control and over-boosting. I was using Tenergy at the time and it felt horrible when I tried the boosted H3.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 02:04 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
I think it's amazing that DHS (or someone) has been able to convince the world that 5 players are using a magic rubber. What good would it do a company to hide its best product? It's like me saying that I have an amazing forehand video, but I only show it to 3 people. How on earth would that help me? If they had a rubber that is faster than Tenergy, they'd be selling it to every EJ on the planet and they'd be worth more than Apple and Microsoft. Think about it.


Well, DHS did start to officially sell those better versions of H3 and now anyone can buy it. But the rubber is one part of the equation. The second part is the booster, and we all know why no major TT brand officially sells boosters.

Brett Clarke wrote:
I was using Tenergy at the time and it felt horrible when I tried the boosted H3.


I guess it was a withdrawal syndrome from those VOCs contained in the Chinese booster used to juice up that H3 you played with :D

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 02:32 
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BRS wrote:
You should get sponsored by Yinhe. Show up head to toe in Yinhe gear. That would be awesome.

True story: I went to Tyson's Thursday night and he had switched back to viscaria from his Xiom ice cream blade (alc/zlc 2 * dignics 05). I asked why and he said control, he lands balls he knows would miss with the xiom blade Then Tyson said "I do miss the real kill shot power on my bh with the viscaria though. But I maybe lose 3 points from my bh not being as powerful, and win 7 from making fewer errors." I said FZD uses viscaria and he gets enough power to kill bhs, maybe it's a technique thing.

The only note of caution I would put up against your slow setup manifesto is for old guys with bad form, like me. If I am used to using T05 or G1, say, and getting a certain amount of power from swinging my arm at the ball with no body in it, going slower and trying to generate equivalent power with my swing will cause an injury. And that is the only true nightmare scenario, not being able to play. So many readers may be making a rational choice to play worse with faster equipment, as a health and safety measure.

I'm curious what you consider the upper limit of not too fast in a rubber? Does it have to be chinese?


Hey Ben, this is where the conversation gets interesting. Your question is really good.

Some years ago, I coached an internationally ranked woman. She stopped playing for a few reasons and one of those was consistent shoulder pain.

This player has started playing again for "fun" and I showed her how to use her legs to turn her hips and torso. She gave it a try and came back with the obvious question - "Is this why I had so much shoulder pain? I was using my arm too much and didn't understand how to spin my hips?"

By now you should be able to guess my answer. The most common injury in TT is shoulder pain and not glutes, quads, hamstrings, core etc. These are the strongest muscles in the body and the shoulder muscles (rotator cuff) are close to the weakest. If you just use your arm, you are asking for injury, regardless of age. If I am 80 years old and I'm just swinging away with my arm, I don't get an exemption from shoulder injuries. That said, if you have a pre-existing condition such as a knee problem, you need to be smart about what you do. Putting lots of weight onto your right leg may not be a good idea. All other injuries need to be considered and common sense should prevail. Talk to your doctor etc if you have real problems.

You propel the forehand by pushing your left knee toward your right knee on the backswing and then pushing with your right leg to straighten it on the forward swing. This process brings the hips and torso into a spin which then propels the arm. It is explained in many ttEDGE videos including ETTS64.

I hope this post helps to answer your question. I think that injury is generally caused by poor movement and not by correct movement. Correct movement is using large muscle groups to propel the relatively weak arm through the forces generated by hip/torso rotation.

In relation to your question about rubber, I don't have an exact answer. I gave my setup to avoid too many questions about this rubber or that rubber. The truth is, I don't know every rubber so I just can't give a clear answer. Chinese rubber is generally slower with very decent surface grip, so that's why I named it. There may be something more European/Japanese/Korean/ which has similar characteristics. Perhaps using thinner rubber sometimes makes sense.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 02:39 
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fastmover wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
I think it's amazing that DHS (or someone) has been able to convince the world that 5 players are using a magic rubber. What good would it do a company to hide its best product? It's like me saying that I have an amazing forehand video, but I only show it to 3 people. How on earth would that help me? If they had a rubber that is faster than Tenergy, they'd be selling it to every EJ on the planet and they'd be worth more than Apple and Microsoft. Think about it.


Well, DHS did start to officially sell those better versions of H3 and now anyone can buy it. But the rubber is one part of the equation. The second part is the booster, and we all know why no major TT brand officially sells boosters.

Brett Clarke wrote:
I was using Tenergy at the time and it felt horrible when I tried the boosted H3.


I guess it was a withdrawal syndrome from those VOCs contained in the Chinese booster used to juice up that H3 you played with :D


Can you please send me an official DHS link where they state that I'll be purchasing the same national rubber that Ma Long uses?

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 02:43 
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If you are old and weak (like me :rofl:), you still won't be able to return serves with Tenergy and you still won't make those blocks against spinny loops.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 02:52 
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Brett Clarke wrote:

Can you please send me an official DHS link where they state that I'll be purchasing the same national rubber that Ma Long uses?


Come on, you get what I mean :) Now almost every respectable store packs official "national" DHS rubbers, and this is exactly what you said --- they are trying to sell (allegedly) the best rubbers in the world to your average EJ.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 03:14 
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Well, the next logical question is why isn't every EJ play with a national H3 instead of Tenergy, right? Well, some of us do. Second, not every average EJ is dedicated enough to order some potentially hazardous chemicals from an obscure shack in Hong Kong, then wait for it for three months to arrive, then spend two weeks applying 8 layers of that chemical only to bubble your precious 80$ "national" rubber. And even if it does not bubble, it is usually a pain in the ass to glue. It will aslo stink for those two weeks. If you live alone, fine. But things will get complicated if you have family/roommate/pet/etc. With the Tenergy or a Tensor the process is a lot easier, the booster is already there, and it all was done and QCed by experienced professionals :)

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Last edited by Dr.Pivot on 09 Feb 2020, 03:25, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 03:24 
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So here is one thing that always annoyed me with cheaper equipment: quality control.
I am sure that for $7 I could buy 5-6 blades and pick 2 that weighed and felt the same. I think you are 100% right on blades that you can go cheap. I still love the TB handle and it's my main reason in using it but I would not recommend that to a new player. I would have them buy a bunch of blades from aliexpress and go with that.

Rubber is more complex. I've noticed differences in batches where I have not with German or Japanese rubber. Now this was maybe 10 years ago. Perhaps things have changed and quality control has improved. It's just very difficult to commit to a rubber and then when it's time to buy another be disappointed. It is also possible that cheaper rubber just falls off faster in performance (especially in the desert where I live) and getting new is just so jarring.

So good value, reliable batch to batch and able to be used for atleast few months? Used Tenergy fits the bill for me in this situation.





I typed this crap but I realized it doesn't get to my subject in time so it's down here:

I don't like new Tenergy on the forehand. I prefer some used stuff that I seem to get plenty of for around $20.
On the backhand I'm much softer with some donic softer stuff - but i've played with much softer. Let's just say its on par with T05fx (maybe a tad softer than that).

The backhand seems good for me. I can generate power with a more flat hit and when I need to spin more it's easier to get into the sponge. It's possible that I would have trouble blocking against very strong attacks. However I can go a bit harder if I'm competitive vs that level of player.

The forehand seems OK to me too...but i've used some chinese stuff and it feels the same - but only when I make a good stroke. If I do some arm shot, it's a disaster. It is more forgiving on those shots with the Tenergy.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 13:55 
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What Brett said is food for thought, but I think there are few things being mixed up that there is no point getting into. Training to master your equipment is by far the most important thing. Enjoying playing what you use is also important so that you have fun investing time learning it. The 1% that is affected by using tackier or slower rubber on the forehand, that is up to you. But it will pale in comparison to the hours you need to put at the table, no matter your technique.

Good technique may be better than bad technique in terms of health preservation, but good technique also can cause injuries (look at the top Chinese players if you doubt this). In the end, just take care of yourself and be aware of what is going on with your body. I can play at a good level with tacky rubber, but I prefer the ball release of European rubber especially when blocking off the table. My serve return with my forehand sucks no matter what I use.

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 14:32 
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NextLevel wrote:
What Brett said is food for thought, but I think there are few things being mixed up that there is no point getting into. Training to master your equipment is by far the most important thing. Enjoying playing what you use is also important so that you have fun investing time learning it. The 1% that is affected by using tackier or slower rubber on the forehand, that is up to you. But it will pale in comparison to the hours you need to put at the table, no matter your technique.

Good technique may be better than bad technique in terms of health preservation, but good technique also can cause injuries (look at the top Chinese players if you doubt this). In the end, just take care of yourself and be aware of what is going on with your body. I can play at a good level with tacky rubber, but I prefer the ball release of European rubber especially when blocking off the table. My serve return with my forehand sucks no matter what I use.


If the Chinese just used their arms, you'd see some really impressive shoulder and arm injuries. If you do anything for 8 hours per day, you'll get some injuries, regardless of how good your technique is. Hell, I'm going to get a wrist injury from writing these EJ posts!

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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2020, 21:22 
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I don't usually mess with chinese rubber, but after Brett's post I found one that may be worth a try.

https://a.aliexpress.com/_rJzr9U

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