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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 13:34 
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wilkinru wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Being "the worst ttedge app player ever" is something I'd think about.



This is a little embarrassing to admit but I find the matches even on the easy level fairly challenging. Almost like there should be an easier level. Sometimes I play for 3 minutes, get down 0-5 or some crap and just quit the game. Clearly during my development I missed out on some low level learning in anticipation as I just dusted the lower level players with technique alone. I hope when I get a little higher level I can read the players a bit better as they may have more standard technique.

I have a theory that you 11-0 winners get absolutely nothing out of the game while me struggling in the bronze leagues am getting loads of benefits. I literally scored 6 points in a doubles match (3 games where I had to deal with this return) due to this. That's far far beyond .001%. Getting that technique used is really huge for me. My anticipation is 600 rating 3 month old toddler. Maybe today it's 601.


Okay, I have only won 11-0 twice in my life at Extreme. Against Henzell, I did it on the first film take attempt. Against Trevor, it was the 4th take. When I play now, I win the cup (left and right handed) without losing a match and I do it every single day. It takes 12 wins (6 at advanced and 6 at extreme) to win both cups. It takes about 20 mins or so.

If I don't play for 6 months, it might take me hours to win both cups, if at all. It's seriously hard to win at extreme level, especially against Trevor. It's shocking for me that Dan has had an 8-0 lead against Trevor. His gaming history and passion for tt are obviously combining to get him to that level. At extreme level, the play is much faster than CNT. This is done with software obviously because none of us can play at those speeds.

I will need to keep training every single day to maintain my current level of play on the app.

Here are some technical tips for playing the ttEDGE matches:
- Use the index finger of your playing hand
- Wait till you are very confident of where the ball is going
- Swipe left or right for about 1cm only (very small)
- Don't let your finger leave the screen
- After swiping left or right, quickly bring the swiper back to the middle (at least in your mind)
- Think "tiny swipes, watch the racket area and direction with intensity."
- At beginner level, you have all day to decide the direction. Take all the time in the world to get familiar with the app. Stop guessing and just wait and win 11-0. It's almost impossible to not win 11-0 if you just wait to see where the ball went.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 13:41 
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big d wrote:
I actually play the game for the joy of it. There actually have been plane rides where I’ve spent the entire time just ttedging!

The concept is quite a unique one imo.

The 11 0 excercise that I went through was torturing. I literally was at it for over 2 hours. The concentration level needed for me is quite hard to achieve.

The way I approach the game is figure out what shots are bothering me the most. If it’s Williams loops than I would choose the fh loop multiball drill until I can get 90% correct at level 4. In the drill I do like to focus a lot on picking up queues that the players will give. For Example Trevor opens his wrist a lot when he goes down the line on his fh loops.

As we speak I’m currently 2 hours in trying to Beat Trevor 11 0 the best I’ve done so far is 8 0.

I do believe the game is rigged a little because a lot of Trevors shots land near the white line which imo is cheating (I do realize I sound petty but hey I’m a gamer it’s my job to complain) lol


I personally don't look for cues. I'm sure that helps to beat the app game, but it's not the way I want to use it because of my assumption that it won't help against other players. I just try to watch the play and react with maximum focus. I hope that my subconscious works everything out for me.

But if your close to winning 11-0 on extreme, that's good enough for me. That can't just be based on known cues. It's too fast for that.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 14:20 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
big d wrote:
I actually play the game for the joy of it. There actually have been plane rides where I’ve spent the entire time just ttedging!

The concept is quite a unique one imo.

The 11 0 excercise that I went through was torturing. I literally was at it for over 2 hours. The concentration level needed for me is quite hard to achieve.

The way I approach the game is figure out what shots are bothering me the most. If it’s Williams loops than I would choose the fh loop multiball drill until I can get 90% correct at level 4. In the drill I do like to focus a lot on picking up queues that the players will give. For Example Trevor opens his wrist a lot when he goes down the line on his fh loops.

As we speak I’m currently 2 hours in trying to Beat Trevor 11 0 the best I’ve done so far is 8 0.

I do believe the game is rigged a little because a lot of Trevors shots land near the white line which imo is cheating (I do realize I sound petty but hey I’m a gamer it’s my job to complain) lol


I personally don't look for cues. I'm sure that helps to beat the app game, but it's not the way I want to use it because of my assumption that it won't help against other players. I just try to watch the play and react with maximum focus. I hope that my subconscious works everything out for me.

But if your close to winning 11-0 on extreme, that's good enough for me. That can't just be based on known cues. It's too fast for that.



Had to be done. Other wise I could not have slept

https://youtu.be/_87UkccVPn0


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 15:04 
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Protip: add ratings to the app and make it resemble USATT rating. The downloads and usage will skyrocket.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 16:51 
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big d wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
big d wrote:
I actually play the game for the joy of it. There actually have been plane rides where I’ve spent the entire time just ttedging!

The concept is quite a unique one imo.

The 11 0 excercise that I went through was torturing. I literally was at it for over 2 hours. The concentration level needed for me is quite hard to achieve.

The way I approach the game is figure out what shots are bothering me the most. If it’s Williams loops than I would choose the fh loop multiball drill until I can get 90% correct at level 4. In the drill I do like to focus a lot on picking up queues that the players will give. For Example Trevor opens his wrist a lot when he goes down the line on his fh loops.

As we speak I’m currently 2 hours in trying to Beat Trevor 11 0 the best I’ve done so far is 8 0.

I do believe the game is rigged a little because a lot of Trevors shots land near the white line which imo is cheating (I do realize I sound petty but hey I’m a gamer it’s my job to complain) lol


I personally don't look for cues. I'm sure that helps to beat the app game, but it's not the way I want to use it because of my assumption that it won't help against other players. I just try to watch the play and react with maximum focus. I hope that my subconscious works everything out for me.

But if your close to winning 11-0 on extreme, that's good enough for me. That can't just be based on known cues. It's too fast for that.



Had to be done. Other wise I could not have slept

https://youtu.be/_87UkccVPn0



For completions sake here’s Master Clarke getting beat 11 0

https://youtu.be/wBEObUT2H8U


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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 17:14 
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That's totally sick Dan!

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 22:15 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Maybe the app doesn't really help one's tt. There would need to be a long term study done though I think that's impossible because of all the other variables. Does multiball help one's tt? Prove it! Show me the study that comprehensively proves that multiball has a positive impact on a player's game? What about isolated serve training? It's impossible to prove anything in tt.

Well I am running an experiment on isolated serve training almost similar to your brain training. Since March I have served every day. Before I got the new robot I did a couple hundred, since April anywhere between 30 - 150 serves a day. Not machine gun pace either. Annoying, Nadal-level pre-serve bounces and tics, and recovery. I always start with straight backspin with the goal of short, low, and rolling back to the net. When I started I averaged two out of ten even if I did 100, like it didn't get better with reps. Now most days I can walk up cold and serve 6 - 8 good out of the first ten. So in terms of the exercise that's a massive improvement. However the ones I miss are always in the net and never long, a much more severe penalty for missing. Since I changed to aibiss I'm not really strong enough to serve long with the 50° Bty sponge.

So will this practice matter when I play a real game again? No idea. Missing 25% of my backspin serves into the net would almost certainly cause too much psychic anguish to continue. Most likely I will revert to doinking sone garbage serve over just to start the rally. But there have been many (many many many many) games and matches where I told myself at the moment (which is probably a big part of the problem, taking myself out of the game mentally) it's 9-9, this loser can't block my loop, all I have to do is serve short twice and he's mine. And then I went and served long twice and got looped off.

I hope a year or more of isolated serve training has a positive impact on my match serves. But I won't be surprised if it doesn't.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 22:30 
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BRS wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Maybe the app doesn't really help one's tt. There would need to be a long term study done though I think that's impossible because of all the other variables. Does multiball help one's tt? Prove it! Show me the study that comprehensively proves that multiball has a positive impact on a player's game? What about isolated serve training? It's impossible to prove anything in tt.

Well I am running an experiment on isolated serve training almost similar to your brain training. Since March I have served every day. Before I got the new robot I did a couple hundred, since April anywhere between 30 - 150 serves a day. Not machine gun pace either. Annoying, Nadal-level pre-serve bounces and tics, and recovery. I always start with straight backspin with the goal of short, low, and rolling back to the net. When I started I averaged two out of ten even if I did 100, like it didn't get better with reps. Now most days I can walk up cold and serve 6 - 8 good out of the first ten. So in terms of the exercise that's a massive improvement. However the ones I miss are always in the net and never long, a much more severe penalty for missing. Since I changed to aibiss I'm not really strong enough to serve long with the 50° Bty sponge.

So will this practice matter when I play a real game again? No idea. Missing 25% of my backspin serves into the net would almost certainly cause too much psychic anguish to continue. Most likely I will revert to doinking sone garbage serve over just to start the rally. But there have been many (many many many many) games and matches where I told myself at the moment (which is probably a big part of the problem, taking myself out of the game mentally) it's 9-9, this loser can't block my loop, all I have to do is serve short twice and he's mine. And then I went and served long twice and got looped off.

I hope a year or more of isolated serve training has a positive impact on my match serves. But I won't be surprised if it doesn't.


In my experience you won't serve many faults in matches. I serve an enormous amount of faults in training and then they disappear in matches.

Keep running that experiment for sure. It may take a while to fully integrate into matches, but this type of training is how you get good.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 22:39 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Everyone should play for their own reasons and I have no idea why people get offended by other's goals and approaches. Who care what someone else is doing to enjoy the sport?


It is partly because people with different goals will find the counsel of one person with a set of goals and approaches hard to take when his approach to the game is different from theirs. I agree that it is sometimes more than this and can be a bit ridiculous, but if someone putting in crazy hours to break 2000 is getting counseled by someone who just wants to hit the ball as hard as they want to, they can end up arguing implicitly or explicitly over their different views of the sport.

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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 22:56 
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wilkinru wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
I've decided that the Backhand Shove Topspin 2020 03 video is really good but it isn't quite accurate for what Harimoto is doing. I would say it's more of a stepping stone to what Harimoto is doing.


I immediately think of all of the exceptions and suddenly everything seems grey and I feel like a beginner coach again. I think of FZD doing this https://youtu.be/gj_xW373nCE?t=25 without whip and then I think of the other times he is using a lot of whip, especially when he's away from the table.. And then this great whip backhand by Harmeet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TnM5wkUeo

I really prefer to look at each shot in an individual way to avoid headaches, though guidelines are absolutely essential. I really like your backhand Russ, though the first that stood out to me was the dropping of the racket below the table, resulting in the inevitable top edges and mistimings. I spent a life time doing this too, so join the club. Harmeet never really drops the racket below the table and I don't ever recall him hitting a top edge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TnM5wkUeo

The use of your body on the backhand is perfect from my perspective. There are other ways of using the body too, though your way looks great to me. The shot is looking really good.


Harmeet's backhand is close to Harimoto's. It's not as whippy because Harimoto closes the racket and then opens up with more racket speed. The racket is more closed for Harimoto (but more open than me!) . I would argue Harimoto's backhand is harder to master but one is rewarded with a better quality ball also.

My backhand isn't there yet - this is just where it's morphed to. After making that video last night I also saw the edges and watched very closely at Harimoto's bat angle at contact (and where the ball is touching the blade). It's very quick but he opens up the racket considerably just before contact. His body movement and whip is so quick and small. Mine is far bigger and more brushing and too closed of an angle. The body and backswing seem good enough but there is a lot to change. I woke up and did 200 balls with a more open angle before I did nearly anything else this morning. Less edge shanking is possible.


The funny thing is that the way I play and think about technique, if I am shanking, I look immediately for a way to stop doing it. I think that is why I started adding mild sidespin in my head, I hated racket edging the ball so much.

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 01:08 
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NextLevel wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Everyone should play for their own reasons and I have no idea why people get offended by other's goals and approaches. Who care what someone else is doing to enjoy the sport?


It is partly because people with different goals will find the counsel of one person with a set of goals and approaches hard to take when his approach to the game is different from theirs. I agree that it is sometimes more than this and can be a bit ridiculous, but if someone putting in crazy hours to break 2000 is getting counseled by someone who just wants to hit the ball as hard as they want to, they can end up arguing implicitly or explicitly over their different views of the sport.


Yep, this is what happens. It happens at all levels too.

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 05:27 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Joo Se Kev wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Talent = Struggle

You've probably heard all the fables and cliches about the benefits of struggling. An example would be a butterfly needing to struggle out of it's cocoon to develop strong wings to fly. If "helped" out of the cocoon, the butterfly shall never fly.

Many "talented" kids get identified and put into elite programs where everything is provided. The result is almost zero RTI. The problem with these well intended programs is, they often decreases a player's struggles, resulting in a metaphoric butterfly, without working wings.

Most athletes who achieve something have many stories of struggle and hardship which, if you think about it, is a little sad. But that's what is required to drive a player to success. It's not always the case, but it's the norm.

If you take a billionaire's son or daughter and put them into sport, the kid or family will find a reason to quit very early on. They don't want or need "problems" in their lives and they can easily avoid them. These problems are what drive a successful athlete (or anyone for that matter). Sometimes it's the struggle to find a table, training partner, coach or money etc etc. Many of these "problems" are really drivers and motivators in disguise. There is nothing more motivating than scarcity and general hardship, as horrible as this may sound to you.

Teach a player the right shots, tactics, footwork, backswings, more tactics, all the tactics or whatever. But be careful solving a player's "problems" because Talent = Struggle.


Well said!

You describe yourself as a "tactics skeptic" sometimes. Can you elaborate more on what you mean by that?


Lol! Did someone put you up to this question? Okay, I'll do it.

If you can't play a forehand, I don't like telling you how to exploit your opponent. If you have Xu Xin's forehand, I won't have to tell you how to exploit your opponent. I prefer to teach someone how to play a forehand.

I believe in building an overall strategy that works against most opponents and not venturing too far away from your fortress. A lot of the best strategy is close to solved, imo.

I do give tactics to elite players in matches, btw. Governments tend to pay me to do so. I have listed the type of advice I give throughout this repetitive thread.


That makes perfect sense, thank you! And I largely agree with that perspective.

Personally, I have found great benefit in building out a "tactical playbook" against various styles and individualized strategies against specific opponents. Not that I'm consulting it between points during a match, but more as a learning tool. The very act of physically writing out ideas and sketching out concepts on paper has a beneficial effect on memory/retention. I've found this helps make my strokes (remembering form cues) and game play a little more "sticky."

As to reading through hundreds of pages on this thread...I'm working on it!!

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 10:21 
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Went 4 - 4 in Friday league at Lilly yip.

Beat both of the players that were higher than me Amir Khan and Ricardo but kinda lost fuel after that. Lost few matches 2 3.

Was able to get some footage and this time it’s all edited!!

Here is the playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... qJx2N6XezU


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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 12:57 
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Joo Se Kev wrote:
That makes perfect sense, thank you! And I largely agree with that perspective.

Personally, I have found great benefit in building out a "tactical playbook" against various styles and individualized strategies against specific opponents. Not that I'm consulting it between points during a match, but more as a learning tool. The very act of physically writing out ideas and sketching out concepts on paper has a beneficial effect on memory/retention. I've found this helps make my strokes (remembering form cues) and game play a little more "sticky."

As to reading through hundreds of pages on this thread...I'm working on it!!


Kev, I like your posts, so I'll tell you some stuff, just between us. You didn't just come on here to teach me table tennis, so thanks for that.

I've coached against most of the best players in the world with a decent success rate. I give myself zero credit for any player's win because I just don't like that concept. I've been both an international player, and a coach, and I know that all credit goes to the player. Coaches don't like to hear this because they drastically overestimate their impact and it needs to be said. Pro players absolutely hate coaches taking credit too.

The average rally in top 100 goes for 3.6 hits (including serve). I've counted many matches. Now let's assume I'm coaching against Harimoto, for example. The serve from my player is totally controllable, and placement is super important. This needs to be discussed and understood or else your team is going down hard. Harimoto is going to try to banana flick every serve, so the serve needs to be short and very wide to the forehand, mixed in with some variations. A good variation against Harimoto is very short and wide to the backhand (the Chinese use this against him) or long to middle/backhand. Again, this situation is very controllable and coachable.

When it comes to receiving against Harimoto, you can't use regular returning which is short to forehand. His forehand flick is too strong, so the return needs to be more to the middle. If he starts to use the banana (less likely than you think) the player needs to push long to his middle. When he is nervous, Harimoto accidentally serves long and these must be heavily attacked to his middle/forehand to put him into a cycle of nervousness.

During rallies, things become very difficult to control and this opens the door for horrible "coaching" mistakes, because you need only one idea. Let's say the idea here is, always attack to the middle and forehand. Do this as much as you can.

The above ends the discussion because we have accounted for the 3.6 hits. If a rally goes any longer, it will come down to variance and even luck. Hopefully my player can hit the middle forehand with most attacks.

The biggest mistakes that coaches make is not understanding what is controllable and how long a rally really goes for. For example, if you say that this guy has a bad backhand, so play everything to his backhand, you are probably a 1600 coach. The serve is the most controllable, followed by the return and then a little direction for attacking during a point.

I bench coached this win against Harimoto last year (all credit to Sathiyan, of course). At least you may believe that I'm not a totally incompetent tt coach and you can reconcile everything with the above mentioned advice that I gave to the player.


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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2020, 14:08 
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big d wrote:
Went 4 - 4 in Friday league at Lilly yip.

Beat both of the players that were higher than me Amir Khan and Ricardo but kinda lost fuel after that. Lost few matches 2 3.

Was able to get some footage and this time it’s all edited!!

Here is the playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... qJx2N6XezU


I've only watched a few points, but I'm ready for my first piece of advice...see below.


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