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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 17:48 
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This - the topic, appears to be the major hurdle in my development.
In other aspects of the game the situation even if not good, at least I can see the light.

This one, OMG, sometime it takes my heart and completely demolishes my confidence.

The funny thing is, such serves do not seem to be even used at the top level, but they are used on my beginner/intermediate level all the time with great success.

LP and even more so, antispin rubbers do help to return such serves, but I just so do not want to proceed that way.
Playing currently with LPs on BH and finding it quite fun, but it's not gonna be natural to me in the long run.
I keep it for another couple more months and then back to the drawing board.

The problem with LPs for me - returning spinny servers to my forehand (SORRY, to my BH) is all LPs can do for me.
Not much more.
Maybe if other players were loopers so I could chop and if we would have more that those 2 meters between the table and the wall, I would develop something.
But with the conditions mentioned, I think LPs are dead end.

Especially vs another chopper or flat hitter - no edge there with LPs.

Thursday thoughts.
Cheers


Last edited by Zverev on 17 Jul 2019, 22:04, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 20:59 
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So are you asking the best way to return fast spinny serve when you play with inverted?

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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 21:10 
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Zverev wrote:
This - the topic, appears to be the major hurdle in my development.
In other aspects of the game the situation even if not good, at least I can see the light.

This one, OMG, sometime it takes my heart and completely demolishes my confidence.

The funny thing is, such serves do not seem to be even used at the top level, but they are used on my beginner/intermediate level all the time with great success.

LP and even more so, antispin rubbers do help to return such serves, but I just so do not want to proceed that way.
Playing currently with LPs on BH and finding it quite fun, but it's not gonna be natural to me in the long run.
I keep it for another couple more months and then back to the drawing board.

The problem with LPs for me - returning spinny servers to my forehand is all LPs can do for me.
Not much more.
Maybe if other players were loopers so I could chop and we would have more that those 2 meters between the table and the wall, I would develop something.
But with the conditions mentioned, I think LPs are dead end.

Especially vs another chopper or flat hitter - no edge there with LPs.

Thursday thoughts.
Cheers



Video would be really nice... Right now I'm somewhat confused about what you can and can not do (same for your opponents), how you play, and what are you trying to do.

Main benefit of LP for you is serve receive on FH? Do you twiddle already or just move to receive them with BH?

Close to the table play is actually bread and butter of LP, especially at amateur level, so lack of space should not be a big deal. Pushblocking is super viable at this level, but rubber won't play itself, and you actually have to enjoy this specific style.

Fast spinny serves to your BH should be dealt with LP just fine (no spin is a bit more challenging). If they come to FH, you should be trying to attack these with inverted.

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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 21:59 
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The reason long spinny serves are not done (much) at high levels is that the receiver can loop it with great aggression and seize control of the point. So the best way to handle these serves is to do the same.
LP are at disadvantage-except if your opponent cannot handle underspin or dead balls-which means your opponent will be at best low-medium level of play.


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 22:22 
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pgpg wrote:
Zverev wrote:
This - the topic, appears to be the major hurdle in my development.
In other aspects of the game the situation even if not good, at least I can see the light.

This one, OMG, sometime it takes my heart and completely demolishes my confidence.

The funny thing is, such serves do not seem to be even used at the top level, but they are used on my beginner/intermediate level all the time with great success.

LP and even more so, antispin rubbers do help to return such serves, but I just so do not want to proceed that way.
Playing currently with LPs on BH and finding it quite fun, but it's not gonna be natural to me in the long run.
I keep it for another couple more months and then back to the drawing board.

The problem with LPs for me - returning spinny servers to my forehand is all LPs can do for me.
Not much more.
Maybe if other players were loopers so I could chop and we would have more that those 2 meters between the table and the wall, I would develop something.
But with the conditions mentioned, I think LPs are dead end.

Especially vs another chopper or flat hitter - no edge there with LPs.

Thursday thoughts.
Cheers



Video would be really nice... Right now I'm somewhat confused about what you can and can not do (same for your opponents), how you play, and what are you trying to do.

Main benefit of LP for you is serve receive on FH? Do you twiddle already or just move to receive them with BH?

Close to the table play is actually bread and butter of LP, especially at amateur level, so lack of space should not be a big deal. Pushblocking is super viable at this level, but rubber won't play itself, and you actually have to enjoy this specific style.

Fast spinny serves to your BH should be dealt with LP just fine (no spin is a bit more challenging). If they come to FH, you should be trying to attack these with inverted.


Apologies, it was a confusing OP message which contained an error as well.
Yes, LPs help me to return spinny serves to BH, not FH as in original post.
I do not twiddle.
And I am better returner on FH with inverted, however percentage is not great either with this guy, a pen holder.
A contributing problem if not the main one, I just cannot read his spin, like at all, completely blind, no idea what's coming.
It's shocking.

It's interesting you say that close to the table is bread and butter of LPs.
I need this statement, as I wasn't sure I am doing right thing, hate to push equipment dead ends.

I play LPs on BH and inverted KTL Pro XT on FH.
My FH is becoming pretty decent weapon, can spin back with high percentage these days.
Sometimes chop on FH as well, particularly heavy back spins, it's just easier.
Waiting for my chance to attack something weaker.

And handling game spins fine, can read and adjust for that.
It's just those serves.... problematic


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 22:24 
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haggisv wrote:
So are you asking the best way to return fast spinny serve when you play with inverted?

I guess that is what it boils down to.
I would be able to handle it with inverted, I would drop LPs.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 00:29 
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In general, very fast long serves are a mix of side and/or topspin, nearly impossible to have a very fast underspin serve. Also, most of the opponent's effort is put into making it fast, so spin will be moderate at best.

As replied to your other post, stay low (very important tip for all new players) as low as you can and keep low (repeat it 10 times, and when you understand it, repeat it another 100 times. When you are playing, constantly remind you self by continuosly repreating it), watch the ball and focus only on the point of contact to gauge spin direction, ignore all excess motion before and after. Adjust the angle to compensate for sidespin, slightly closed bat and loop. With some practice, you can get some very aggressive returns and the opponent will be deterred from trying it for the rest of the match.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 01:14 
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It sounds like you need to develop a backhand attack. And it's probably one of the harder skills to develop. Also don't stand too close to the table, about three feet back will still let you reach short serves while having enough space to attack long serves. Also don't stand smack in the middle, stand to your backhand side so you can cover more of the table with your forehand.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 08:39 
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lasta wrote:
In general, very fast long serves are a mix of side and/or topspin, nearly impossible to have a very fast underspin serve. Also, most of the opponent's effort is put into making it fast, so spin will be moderate at best.

As replied to your other post, stay low (very important tip for all new players) as low as you can and keep low (repeat it 10 times, and when you understand it, repeat it another 100 times. When you are playing, constantly remind you self by continuosly repreating it), watch the ball and focus only on the point of contact to gauge spin direction, ignore all excess motion before and after. Adjust the angle to compensate for sidespin, slightly closed bat and loop. With some practice, you can get some very aggressive returns and the opponent will be deterred from trying it for the rest of the match.


What you are saying sounds reasonable... few things however...
The spin is sufficient for the ball to go into the net or sideway if I just block off the table with inverted.

LPs do allow me to have some success there in blocking, some weird ball comes back to him often drawing error.

He hits his table very close to the edge, the next bounce is very close to my edge - that is how the serve looks.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 08:48 
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iskandar taib wrote:
It sounds like you need to develop a backhand attack. And it's probably one of the harder skills to develop. Also don't stand too close to the table, about three feet back will still let you reach short serves while having enough space to attack long serves. Also don't stand smack in the middle, stand to your backhand side so you can cover more of the table with your forehand.

Iskandar


Yes, I usually do stand arm length away from the table and even beyond the edge line of the table on my BH side.
I do move closer to the table to receive this guy's serves, as the only viable option for me on BH now is to push block with LPs.

Once the ball leaves the boundary of the table I have no confidence with LPs... how to hit... every shot is as much surprise to me as to my opponent...
It's like I am thrown years back to infancy of my TT...
And, anticipating the suggestions to train more, the only way to train here is to play matches.
No one likes hitting balls without scoring and even when warming up, they keep their favourite shots for the game, even for critical points...
It's a jungle here, man! Survival of the fittest. :)


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 10:25 
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Zverev wrote:
lasta wrote:
In general, very fast long serves are a mix of side and/or topspin, nearly impossible to have a very fast underspin serve. Also, most of the opponent's effort is put into making it fast, so spin will be moderate at best.

As replied to your other post, stay low (very important tip for all new players) as low as you can and keep low (repeat it 10 times, and when you understand it, repeat it another 100 times. When you are playing, constantly remind you self by continuosly repreating it), watch the ball and focus only on the point of contact to gauge spin direction, ignore all excess motion before and after. Adjust the angle to compensate for sidespin, slightly closed bat and loop. With some practice, you can get some very aggressive returns and the opponent will be deterred from trying it for the rest of the match.


What you are saying sounds reasonable... few things however...
The spin is sufficient for the ball to go into the net or sideway if I just block off the table with inverted.

LPs do allow me to have some success there in blocking, some weird ball comes back to him often drawing error.

He hits his table very close to the edge, the next bounce is very close to my edge - that is how the serve looks.


I assume you meant blocking off the bounce? Takes some time, but try to get in the habit of attacking these balls, blocking is a sure fire way from the other guy to continue attacking.

Nothing replaces practice. Find some training partners and spend a few sessions just on serve receive. Reciprocate.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 10:36 
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Yes, blocking off the bounce, early take, on the rise, using incoming power.
That works the best right now, if goes in.
Then it's fair fight and I am good. Using my FH almost exclusively.

For attacking with BH I have to go back to inverted on BH.

Cheers


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 10:48 
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If you're going to block, then you have to use the correct racket angle. The trick, of course, is being able to read the spin. And it depends on how good your opponent is. I've faced off against an International class serve (Brett Clarke, who answers questions on that long techniques thread) and I didn't get a single one back because I could NOT see what spin he was putting on the ball. Lesser opponents should be far less challenging.

If you stand further back, you could try attacking the ball on the rise or at the top of the bounce. Long serves are actually far easier to attack than short, spinny ones. Practice returning them, don't just try to do it in games. If you can't practice there, practice somewhere else.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 10:50 
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Zverev wrote:
Yes, blocking off the bounce, early take, on the rise, using incoming power.
That works the best right now, if goes in.
Then it's fair fight and I am good. Using my FH almost exclusively.

For attacking with BH I have to go back to inverted on BH.

Cheers


You can also attack with LP...

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 10:53 
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pgpg wrote:
You can also attack with LP...


viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8086&start=240#p372066

This guy makes it look easy... :lol:

Iskandar


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