OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Sorry for the delay in responding to this, but I was able to get some vague-like answers at least! More or less when I described the situation he reiterated the importance of playing with a grip that is fundamentally sound. He also said that it is never too late to correct form and work on things the right way. Lastly, he said he does not do private lessons. He doesn't really even do many clinics these days, truthfully.

I can tell you, that because he is coaching the ND club team at our facility now, he is in every Sunday through the remainder of the semester - but he's also quite busy during that time as a result!

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No worries at all on the reply! I really appreciate you talking to him for me! So basically, he is definitely saying to get rid of the current grip. Gosh, I was hoping he would do private lessons, but I’m sure he is a busy man. I’d love to meet him and maybe talk some to him. I have his dvd set, and it is impressive. He teaches a ton about the sport on it. So for anyone that hasn’t seen it, its worth it. Paddle Palace has it I think. He is not big on smashing lol.

I have considered using a modified shake where I put my middle and index fingers together, up on the paddle. Would this produce the correct strokes/technique?

So now my situation turns to this. I cannot do shake. It seems utterly uncomfortable, and I don’t think I’d enjoy playing like that. The Seemiller Grip I can probably do, but again, uncomfortable. Sticking my finger way out there, my index, kind of odd.

So I’m back to square one. I keep thinking Jpen, but I dunno.

That's interesting to hear about Danny and what he's up to these days. Also interesting to hear that Notre Dame actually has a team! We never did, we had a bunch of individuals (it kept changing from year to year, since most were undergrads) who would, from time to time, go to tournaments around the state and sometimes in Ohio. The best "regular" player was rated 1800 or so, the rest of us were a lot lower than that (1500 and below - mostly a lot below). The best players to cycle through was a German post doc who used to play in the second level league in Germany - he went to one USOTC and ended up with a 2200+ rating. The other was a Chinese PhD student who had been a second tier Chinese National Team player (name of Yan Jun) - he was maybe 40 at the time and played pips out Chinese penhold. We took him to a tournament in Dayton once, he beat Clark Yeh, who must've been 16 or 17 at the time and had spent some time getting coached in China, and was also a pips out Chinese penholder, in the finals. There was also, at the same time, a Chinese woman who had ALSO been in the second tier of the Chinese National Team, but she only visited the club once (and she beat him in the one game they played). Can't remember when this was, exactly, but we started getting Chinese grad students all of a sudden.

Iskandar

Well, an update on my quest to improve my game and land the 1500 mark. Hopefully by next June.
Sadly, I was not able to attend Coach Seemiller’s camp; family illness prevented me from going. Major disappointment, but life goes on.

I did get to correspond with him, which was really cool. He suggested that he would not “even try” to change my grip at this point. Also, he was ok with the Sardius and rubber setup I have. I so wish I could have worked with him.

I just bought a new setup, and I’m going to give it a go. A friend has been taking notes, and I am currently hitting the ball off the table, going long, have to adjust. Played one of my worst games ever about 2 weeks ago against a retriever and pure hitter, highly consistent. He doesn’t make any mistakes, and wants you to beat yourself, cam also hit winners.

So, my new setup is:

Gambler Zebra Classic Oversize
Gambler GXL Red sponge 0.6 mm
Gambler 7s 1.9 mm
Keep in my mind I just play one side, and a modified Seemiller grip. I appreciate everyone’s advice, and I’m trying to feel my way through until I can get some coaching.

Any tips, advice, thoughts on where I am now? I figured it was time for a reboot after the last match. League champ beat me 11-8, 4, 3, 4.

Hi Sardius...

I am going to throw a bit of a monkey wrench into this discussion by saying that I disagree with not changing your grip. While I certainly can't say I know more than Danny Seemiller I do have some experience with players that have switched from the grip that you are using to either the Seemiller style grip or traditional shakehands. I even coached a player that switched and became over 2000 and the other is around 1600. It is something that you will just need to decide to do and stick with it. The biggest difference in your grip and Seemiller is that having the thumb wrapped around the handle (Seemiller) will give you a much more stable grip. With the thumb on the back of the blade you will lack both power and stability to execute proper stokes.

I also have a lot of experience coaching soccer. One of the things that I realized is that while there are many amazing players they all do some fundamental things the same way. I encouraged my players to experiment and learn individual tricks that would make them unique. I also insisted that they practiced and had sound basic skills as well. It is the same with table tennis. While occasionally you will see a high rated player that is odd in all the ways they play, mostly you find that they do the basics correctly. This relates to the Seemiller grip in that it is the ultimate version of a "basement style" grip taken to it's ultimate conclusion. When you watch Danny or any highly rated Seemiller player play, their forehand and backhand strokes are the same whether they were playing shakehands or penhold.

Fundamentals are what you need to build on and a stable grip will allow you to develop those basic strokes and build on them. Changing your grip and learning basic technique will allow you reach your goal of being 1500.

That said I think that what you need to do is take a look at how Eric Boggan plays. He uses the Seemiller style grip but doesn't hold the racket exactly the same way that Danny does. While they both turn the racket from standard shakehands to be able to use the same side for forehand and backhand, Eric's index finger is lower toward the handle and wrapped around the blade more. This changes his game to more backhand dominant and changes his forehand to be less spinney than Danny's. This will be more like you play now but will give you a better forehand and better stability overall. Eric is excellent at punching with his backhand and hitting with his forehand whereas Danny is known for a whippy spinney forehand. These are directly related to how they hold the racket.

Probably the most difficult thing for you to learn will be backhand pushing (or maybe not). This requires a grip change to the way you hold the racket now, with your thumb on the back of the racket and then immediately switching back to your topspin grip. Doing this allows you to open up the blade face to push under the ball.

Lastly Eric is an amazing twiddler that can hit all shots with his inverted or anti from forehand or backhand. There is no easy way to twiddle with your grip as it is. Learning to use a slower less spinney rubber can only be an advantage at the level you are playing and will help you achieve your ratings goal.

Good luck whatever you decide to do but I know that I would change my grip if I were you.

Finally, I get to attend Coach Seemiller’s camp! Nov. 3/5. Super excited!

I think there’s a lot of truth to your analysis. And I also think you’re correct, in that a grip change to promote a more traditional and basic playing style is best. But, alas, my problem is that it be done this for almost 35 years, and I just can’t seem to force myself to do it. It’s literally like starting over. I used to dominate competition for years, and a new player, I simply can’t beat him. He’s beaten me over 40 straight matches, and I just can’t seem to win.

After that many consecutive victories , and he is dominant plus, I kind of wonder if I just don’t have what it takes to play at that level, and to keep trying to get better. Learning all the new strokes, the work to develop coaching, plus I run the league and have for a very long time.

There are three or 4, maybe 5 guys rising up fast, and I am on the decline, winning by fewer and fewer points each time. I do hate to retire, because I don’t know if all the work I’ve put in will allow the league to keep going; I’m not sure that anyone can step up to do the work we need to keep it going. It’s a club that requires a lot of shepherding and communication to keep attendance up.

I guess that: the workload, my declining playing ability, a new star that’s taken over, and the continued grind may have finally caught up with me. I had a great run, but as they all, all good things…
I did hit some with a pistol grip Sanwei paddle tonight, and I liked it pretty well.

Thanks to all for their advice. But retirement, well, it has to happen eventually, right?

Do you mean retiring from league admin, or from playing?

If the former, sure - it takes a lot of selfless volunteer work to keep TT infra / admin / events / leagues running, and it's an underappreciated, and often unrecognised part of the game. It's easy to keep on doing it because of the fear that if you stop, nobody else will take it on, and that feels like a lot of responsibility. I think it's important to try to step away even if only for a while, and make sure there is a rotation of admin/management support in the community, for the health of everyone.

If the latter, maybe. I played this week with two people in their 80s. One of whom was a very strong player in his 40s/50s. He still reads the game well, and has some superb shots, but lacks reactions, mobility and strength to compete at the higher levels, but is still competive in the lower leagues, and still loves playing. If you derive enjoyment from playing the game, and can set your own objectives based on levels, there is no reason to retire unless you physically cannot play any more.

Ultimately we all do this for fun, not for a living, so as long as it's fun, keep doing it. Where the skill comes in is in adjusting our definition of what fun is. If fun is only ever achieved by maintaining or improving results and ratings, then our enjoyment will be very much curtailed. I'm getting much better at enjoying the game, the competition, being pleased for my opponent, and just enjoying that I can move, and hit a little ball around for a few hours, regardless of the result of the games. Do I prefer winning and improving? Absolutely! Will I give up when my level starts to go down, as I get older, and new players get better? I don't think so.

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Hi Sardius,

Since you took my previous advice pretty well, I am going to give you some more.

Firstly... unless you are just tired, injured and have had enough, don't quit. I was out of the game for 15 years playing age group soccer and coaching before I came back. I can't believe that I waited so long. I am having a blast. My highest rating was right around 2000 US when I stopped playing. I came back and and decided to reinvent my game to how I always wanted to play. And while I have had success against much higher rated players I seem to find a way to loose to lower rated players and my current rating is just below 1500. For the last year I have been fighting with severe arthritis in my neck. I have finally, mostly come to grips with it and have regained relative painless movement and have slowly been playing better. At the last tournament I played I at least held my own at my rating and now this weekend I will be playing again and hope to continue to improve.

Back to you... if for a long time you were the guy then there is no reason that you can't get back there by improving on your game. The grip change is not that drastic I think. Grab the blade like you normally would and then take your thumb from the back and wrap it around the handle. You should immediately feel that the grip is more secure and you can hit a more consistent and powerful forehand. Don't go back to your old grip. Yes this takes some discipline but you will be rewarded with your patience. If you play a couple times a week, after a couple of months you should be comfortable with the change you made and wonder what the big deal was before you did it. Remember though that in order to push underspin on your backhand you do need to change your grip to the old one. Immediately return the new grip after each push.

During this time stop worrying about results. Concentrate on improving your strokes so that they are as close as you can make them to a known top player. Film yourself to see what you actually look like when you play. We often have a much different idea of how we perceive ourselves playing and what the reality is. Use that information to make adjustments to your training. Do not go back to your old way of playing.

Learn to twiddle. I mean it. Unless there is a physical reason you can't. The greatest advantage of your new grip is the ability to use inverted on your forehand and backhand without needing to twiddle in between shots. But that advantage is also true about using the anti side. Practice with an old blade or racquet when you can. While your watching TV or reading or anytime your just relaxing. It will drive the people around you nuts but hey it will be a good conversation at parties. My wife is always telling people that I practice this all the time. Do not go back to your old way of playing.

Now practice with the antispin. Learn to do all the shots you would with the inverted. It is possible. They aren't the same and it will take time but not using the anti to your advantage would be a big mistake. Since they are so different it is hard to confuse inverted and anti strokes so unless you forget which rubber you're using at the moment, after some time, you will not be trying to hit the inverted like anti and or the other way around. Do not go back to your old way of playing.

Lastly... I have a Sanwei pistol grip blade. It's a long story but I have a shoulder issue that sometimes makes my forehand stroke stutter along it's path. I have trained myself to avoid the movement that causes this and it is not an issue. I had a chance to try a custom pistol grip blade maybe 30 years ago and found that the change in the angle of my hand along my arm when I use a pistol grip eliminates the stutter. If I were going to play with inverted on both sides I might use this blade. But I am committed to playing with long pips or anti for now.

I hope I have helped you a little. This is a great game and I think that you may regret not playing after a while. Embrace the change and make it work for you. It could actually renew your love of the game. But I can't repeat this often enough. If you make the change and want it to work. Do not return to your old game.

Good luck. I'm sure you can do it. And don't forget to have fun!

Thanks for the great advice, as well as to all others as well. I think I need a new setup as my Sardius is fast. Currently Tacky C on forehand and anti on backhand. I either hit short with the anti, or it goes off the Table when I push, very frustrating. Lost again tonight, badly: 2, 4, 9, 6. I made some good plays, rallies, but was just plain out matched. He gets everything back. He’s not a looper, but is a deadly accurate hitter. And can get to almost anything.

So, so I need a new setup? It seems like I do. Basically, when we play, it’s the same scenario. Over 40 times, which has bottomed out my confidence. He hits a lot of flat kills and smashes, but I don’t see much spin.

A new blade, and rubber, to go with my Seemiller grip would be much appreciated. I am tempted strongly to use J pen, because I only use one side of the blade, but I know this may not help me. Again, thank you for the support.

And yes, I have seriously considered giving it up. I feel like all I’ve worked for and won as the top guy is being erased, because o simply can’t beat this guy. And no one else can either. Every week he wins string. He’s only lost 4 games since June. Probably won 50 matches since then and only 1 loss or 2 from outside higher level guys.

Again, thanks.

I love the new cyberspace stiga, but I’m afraid it will be too fast.

Oh! That's very interesting. A VERY fast blade and VERY slow rubber (I used Tackiness Chop once, it proved to be way too slow). I wonder what that's like.

Want to try something more mainstream? An all-wood five ply (e.g. Sanwei M8 ) and something like Rakza 7 (or maybe 729 or Yinhe 9000 or Mercury II if you want something a little slower). And I suppose a sheet of anti on the other side. As you know - the problem with a too-fast setup is over the table - blocks and pushes tend to go long. Especially blocks off fast topspin.

Iskandar

All of it. I know it sounds drastic, but I’m exhausted with it. I may try one last run with a true Seemiller grip and go from there. It can’t hurt. I’m gonna drop a lot, but I know I can’t win like this. Last time he beat me 11-2, 4, 9, 6

Hi Iskandar. I wish I had read this sooner. That’s exactly what’s been happen No with my game vs a player that hits tremendously fast topspin drives and smashes. My pushes and blocks have gone long. I’ve lost a lot of points like that. I’m like, “what is going on here?” Now I know. I’m hanging up my Sardius, just too fast. And, I feel like the control is terrible.

Okay guys. I think I’m about to go Jpen. I’m just wondering, should I switch completely right now and play Jpen at our league competition… or should I play with my old grip until I’m better at the Jpen? I do think Jpen is the right fit for me. Have bought a cheap Butterfly p5 to start with.