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PostPosted: 27 Dec 2021, 09:33 
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Hi everyone. I have been on the board before, but it has been a long time ago. Nice to be back. I haven’t played since the pandemic started, our club has been s*** down. My goal is to get better. From around 1100 to 1200 (I did play some just the other day, and a seasoned player said this is where I am). Not very good with 30 years playing time I know. I’m definitely-taught, never really had any coaching to speak of. I currently play with a Sardius, Tenergy 64 on the front, and super anti on the other side. I started trying to play a Seemiller grip before we quit playing, but, it is an extreme forehand grip imo. I’ve always played with my thumb on the back of the rubber (gives me good balance/support) and my ready position is sideways (kind of resembled penhold). That is, the top of the blade is turned sideways when I face the opponent. I think switching to the Seemiller screwed my game up as I did a lot of blocking, but my serves were not nearly as good, and it was harder to hit my flat kill shot. I lift up on the blade and the head of my bat is upside down, and bam! It’s a weird shot, and my grip position looks like a thumbs down. Anyway, when I went to Seemiller grip, I pushed a lot more, blocked quickly, and would try to smash the ball occasionally. I can use snappy wrist movements to produce pretty spinny serves, mostly backhand spinny serves. My pusheS are extremely backspin heavy, but one problem with my pushing too much is that I get the ball too high. I really want to get to 1400 or 1500 by the end of 2022, but I don’t want to change my grip. Can anyone help me here? A new setup, strategy, etc. would all be welcomed. I thought about playing J-pen but I’m told that would set me back even longer. I also think Seemiller grip is out because I’m not great at twiddling, and playing with Anti, well, it has been a struggle. Never have practiced a lot, but I have been active for around 30 of 32 years playing weekly. Sorry for giving so much info, just trying to be accurate on the briefing and situation. Thank you all in advance.


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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2021, 18:28 
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I knew someone who played with that grip about 15 years ago. He reached maybe div 2 level. The grip wasn't his limiting factor though.

As I said in the JPEN thread, switching to another grip can help you get out of bad habits. You could try CPEN too as the blades are more readily available and 2-sided.

The best way to increase your level at this stage is working on serve and serve return. Including serve / receive footwork. And then you need to work on reducing arm movements and using your body to generate the movements for your strokes. You need small, controlled compact strokes. No need to go for winners that have a high chance of missing. Consistency and good placement will win you games.


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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 04:30 
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Thank you again for the advice. So, if you were in my position, what would you do at this point in terms of grip, equipment, and playing style (which you’ve talked about)? I am open to suggestions as I want to improve my game. Division 2: could you tell me what level that would be in the US? Thank you.


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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 05:15 
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How do you play backhands with you thumb against the backhand rubber? I'm having trouble picturing strokes from your description. Not sure how you could get the anti into play without twiddling, which you said you don't do. My spatial relations skills are poor, not criticizing your style, just hard for me to visualize.

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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 09:18 
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BRS wrote:
How do you play backhands with you thumb against the backhand rubber? I'm having trouble picturing strokes from your description. Not sure how you could get the anti into play without twiddling, which you said you don't do. My spatial relations skills are poor, not criticizing your style, just hard for me to visualize.



No worries at all. I would like feedback good, bad or ugly. Just really tired of my game not moving forward. My forehand and backhand are on the same side. Occasionally I’ll twiddle, to use the anti, but not often. I hold my paddle sideways (the head is). So I do a lot of pushing and blocking like this. I will open up my blade for smashes. I’m attaching two pics, just used an old Rec paddle, for reference. Thanks for your interest.


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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 16:37 
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Thank you for providing the visuals for how you currently hold the blade!

I was wondering if you could also show how you adjusted when you went for what you considered a more proper Seemiller grip? I'm pretty curious and suspect you ended up more along the lines of position three, just based on what you've included.

One thing I'm not really seeing anywhere here though, is if you loop? Or try to loop? And if so, do you prefer looping against top or under? When I read the way you report playing when you switched it sounds like you were really doing it well, but maybe that you weren't willing to open with the underspin loop after building out the point?

I don't know if I agree that the Seemiller grip is an extreme forehand grip, but that's also what makes me so curious about how your grip looked~

I can't speak to how far your current grip can go, because there's so much more to the sport, and usually things that impact our ceilings aren't that impactful just based on how few of us get to the ceiling anyway. But, if you do want to change it, I feel fairly confident in my own belief that much of what you're already doing you should be able to continue in a Seemiller grip, including that flat kill (if I'm understanding it right?) from either position two or three.

There's nothing but truth to the idea that serve and receive can carry you a long way towards your goal though, and I also agree that a full switch might make for a good clean mental break to work back from. Either way though there's likely a period of time where you have to accept taking steps back to rebuild and press further - that's just how plateaus of all kinds seem to work.

I hope you're able to share how you adjusted, and actually I guess if you'd like I can share the three positions for the Seemiller grip as done by Dan? Since I realize that without context my above message might not convey much.

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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 17:34 
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Reniculous wrote:
Thank you for providing the visuals for how you currently hold the blade!

I was wondering if you could also show how you adjusted when you went for what you considered a more proper Seemiller grip? I'm pretty curious and suspect you ended up more along the lines of position three, just based on what you've included.

One thing I'm not really seeing anywhere here though, is if you loop? Or try to loop? And if so, do you prefer looping against top or under? When I read the way you report playing when you switched it sounds like you were really doing it well, but maybe that you weren't willing to open with the underspin loop after building out the point?

I don't know if I agree that the Seemiller grip is an extreme forehand grip, but that's also what makes me so curious about how your grip looked~

I can't speak to how far your current grip can go, because there's so much more to the sport, and usually things that impact our ceilings aren't that impactful just based on how few of us get to the ceiling anyway. But, if you do want to change it, I feel fairly confident in my own belief that much of what you're already doing you should be able to continue in a Seemiller grip, including that flat kill (if I'm understanding it right?) from either position two or three.

There's nothing but truth to the idea that serve and receive can carry you a long way towards your goal though, and I also agree that a full switch might make for a good clean mental break to work back from. Either way though there's likely a period of time where you have to accept taking steps back to rebuild and press further - that's just how plateaus of all kinds seem to work.

I hope you're able to share how you adjusted, and actually I guess if you'd like I can share the three positions for the Seemiller grip as done by Dan? Since I realize that without context my above message might not convey much.


Hello! Yes, I would be glad to share the Seemiller grip attempt I tried, and some other angles. I will post them tomorrow. This grip is not very loop friendly, I’m afraid. I honestly wouldn’t know if I hit a loop or not (sad I know). However, this why I’m here. To try and figure out what I need to do. It seems like every experienced and or knowledgeable player that I talk to has a different take on what I should do. I respect all their opinions, but it does make my decision on a grip, game style, and equipment setup quite difficult. I tried to copy the Seemiller style, including his grip, serve, etc. I did not include the loop. My tool kit includes:
1. Multiple serves: using the windshield wiper wrist action. My go-to is a backspin and sidespin combo. Also, a nasty sidespin serve (usually with Tacky Chop, but I replaced it with anti).

2. Pushing, blocking, smashing, flat kills. Emphasis on the first two. The pushes have heavy backspin on them.
I really just use the backhand to cover the entire table. Not ideal, I know. I had always won about 85% of the games in my league until a young player around 21 came in, and he is a retriever. My control and placement were not effective anymore. Sent me into a spiral. I thought I played well against him, but he’s beaten me about 16 times straight (granted, I did have a serious health issue at the time, but still). I will soon be playing him again, healthy, but he is extremely fast and ranked about 1275 Usatt. I’m around 1090. He’s a bad match-up for me.

It does seem like I played better with the style in the pictures that I’ve shown. My footwork is not great, and I really struggle to hit consistent shots. One player, about 2000, said I would never get to 1500, which is my goal (with this style).

I have been considering:
J-Pen Grip with short pips
Seemiller Grip (anti On BH and Rozena (sp ?) on FH

Another top player suggested that I keep my grip and go for long pips as close to frictionless as they make, with Grizzly (on the BH).

I used to play much more offensively. 3 and 5 ball attacks. Inconsistent at best, but I believe I played better. Used a Sardius with Tacky Drive and Chop Butterfly. Used TD when I served and on those rallies, and TD on defense. Also, when I try to push, it does seem to go up high with this grip. Thanks again!


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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 17:52 
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Here are a few more pics: the attempted Seemiller grip pic didn’t take, arghh! Lol. I will get it tomorrow.
The sideways pic is how I push and get most of my points (working the table).


Attachments:
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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 21:50 
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Have you ever tried to play a regular grip?

With that much playing time I'm sure you've built up some feeling for the game etc. I think you should choose shakehand/jpen and stick with it. Watch vids, train the basics a lot, maybe get coaching if you can afford. At first you might lower your skill lvl (or might not tbh) but in the end you will probably improve way more and hit that 1500 mark easier.

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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2021, 22:17 
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Okay so this is more advice by analogy than real advice. But there is a guy here who plays with a grip close to your seemiller one, not a true seemiller i don't think. he maintains a usatt 1800-ish level. So it can be done, or certainly up to. 1500 which is your goal.

here are two match videos. He topspins, not really looping, but topspin. And I see he takes his thumb off the back of the rubber to push. Mostly he has a very good feel for the game and placement. Which you would, if you played for more than 60 years like this guy has.

In the green shirt here: https://youtu.be/qnkHvIsi4uE
And then the one who is the same guy here: https://youtu.be/OTS2Jl-Y1wM

As far as I know he isn't using anti, so that's a new element you would have to work into your game. But maybe there is something in these matches you could build on.

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PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 09:21 
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Ndragon wrote:
Have you ever tried to play a regular grip?

With that much playing time I'm sure you've built up some feeling for the game etc. I think you should choose shakehand/jpen and stick with it. Watch vids, train the basics a lot, maybe get coaching if you can afford. At first you might lower your skill lvl (or might not tbh) but in the end you will probably improve way more and hit that 1500 mark easier.


I have been told that when I find the correct grip, style, and get my fundamental game down, that I should move up fast. This is from a 30 plus year player rated 2180 I think. The best player that I ever won against was 1900 ish (pick up game at a club). This sounds impossible, I know, but it happened. I have beaten several players that were highly rated: 1540, 1670, 1250 and one over 1400. Also, I have lost to many players (much more) at a higher level. The 1900 guy, I was in a zone, and that was back in the 21 pt days (1998). Anyway, yes, I have tried to play the traditional shake grip, and I just can’t seem to make it work. I’ve been told it would be harder to learn and switch to Seemiller style than J-pen, but I dunno. Tactically, I’m advanced in knowing what to do, to get the point, but consistently executing it is an issue. If I played J-pen, how long would it take for me to learn it, and what type of setup would I need? Thanks


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PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 10:41 
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My modified Seemiller grip that I have been using


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351330C4-DC73-4641-983D-4E5455A9FC55.jpeg [ 14.48 KiB | Viewed 4763 times ]
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PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 12:53 
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I've attached the best shots I could figure out how to take of the three positions. It looks like your version sits somewhere between two and three and has more than the necessary amount of index finger wrapping - which I would usually assume would have made it more backhand dominate overall.

You would traditionally use position one for your forehands, position two for backhands, and position three is virtually just for inverted pushing.

Reading what you've posted since, it does seem that this kind of finger movement might not be what you're seeking, but I still wanted to share.

In regards to the jpen, I assume you'll want to play that traditionally one sided and aim to learn the traditional backhand blocks and kills. I've seen quite a few of the cpen players I know move away from the traditional because it feels limiting to them, I've also been killed by traditional backhands at tournaments. I know some people have no issue with wrist flexibility to get the face closed well for blocking, but others find it very uncomfortable - in regards to that it's a challenge to predict how it would feel for you - if you're going to try it, I suggest first picking up one of the dirty cheap Butterfly premades off of Amazon just to feel it. There's really nothing else like it.

If you're going to go the two sided jpen path, I really like the Nittaku Sou MF line - though that could be really fast for initial learning.


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PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 15:56 
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Reniculous wrote:
I've attached the best shots I could figure out how to take of the three positions. It looks like your version sits somewhere between two and three and has more than the necessary amount of index finger wrapping - which I would usually assume would have made it more backhand dominate overall.

You would traditionally use position one for your forehands, position two for backhands, and position three is virtually just for inverted pushing.

Reading what you've posted since, it does seem that this kind of finger movement might not be what you're seeking, but I still wanted to share.

In regards to the jpen, I assume you'll want to play that traditionally one sided and aim to learn the traditional backhand blocks and kills. I've seen quite a few of the cpen players I know move away from the traditional because it feels limiting to them, I've also been killed by traditional backhands at tournaments. I know some people have no issue with wrist flexibility to get the face closed well for blocking, but others find it very uncomfortable - in regards to that it's a challenge to predict how it would feel for you - if you're going to try it, I suggest first picking up one of the dirty cheap Butterfly premades off of Amazon just to feel it. There's really nothing else like it.

If you're going to go the two sided jpen path, I really like the Nittaku Sou MF line - though that could be really fast for initial learning.


Thank you for the pics! Looks like I’m a pretty good way off from the Seemiller Grip. I notice when I use my thumb grip, and then try Seemiller, the blade angle changes drastically. I think I’ve been playing more J-pen in hitting, minus how it covers the backhand.

I definitely think I’ll stay away from shakehands grip, it just doesn’t suit me, and would really set me back.

Yes, if I use Jpen, I’ll just use the one side, and probably start out with the cheap Butterfly or assembled racket just to try it. I’d say it will initially drop me 2 00 or 300 Points, but that’s okay. It’s either that or stay with my thumb grip. Evidently, I can get better by using it. Either that, or I may stay at my ceiling. It’s still a difficult decision, because I’m going to invest a lot of time and work into whatever I decide.

My Sardius has tacky D on the forehand, and super anti on back. Had been a long time since I had it out.

Thank you guys for helping me. It is most appreciated. Jpen would be completely odd for me, grip wise, but I think at the angle I’m playing, trying to cover the whole table with my arm and wrist, backhand, it is limiting, although very comfortable.

Sardius is extremely hard and has little swell time. So sometimes I wonder if I’d be a lot better if I stayed with my current grip and changed setups (also requiring time), and see if I can go up.

I want to decide, but there’s a lot at stake (for me anyways lol).


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PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 17:10 
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