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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2023, 03:17 
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I am still a beginner, even though I've played on and off for years through my 20s I'm still pretty bad. typically sitting at the tail end of the rankings at a local club. My question which I tried to look for on the forum but haven't really found is if I want to learn to play with Inverted FH and Long Pips BH, should I make the switch as early as possible, or play double inverted until I get decent and still want to make the swap? I've pretty much been following the "Play double inverted and learn strokes" for years, but I always think about just making the switch now.

I have no dreams of becoming a pro and will likely remain club-level and at most small tournament level.

If this question has been answered before, please just point me in the direction and I can delete this thread if possible.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2023, 06:24 
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Table tennis equipment choice is support of playing style. It is reasonable to discover your playing style you will enjoy at your current level.

You will never reach decent level with dual inverted without several years of paid coaching lessons. Exceptions sure exist but you (and me) are not of them.
LP is passive reactive style. If it is ok for you then it is the fastest way to reach respective ranking without being actually good.
Classic antispin rubber (slow smooth rubber but not completely frictionless) is another alternative. The easiest BH rubber choice to play. Decent antispin rubber can support more allround playing style then LP.
Short pips is a way to play fast attacking style with less emphasis to spin. Not for all.

The first my success was playing with antispin rubber. Then I played with ox LP BH for 10+ years. Got bored and switched to MP for a couple of years. Very briefly tried inverted. Now I discover the world of SP. The highest rating peak was with LP, but I will never return to them.


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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2023, 20:48 
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what does good or weak side has to do with this?
LP takes a lott off training to master well.
If you use LP on your weakside it's still your weak side .. you only win because people can't handle LP.
If you play versus a player that knows how to play agains LP your are screwed.
Many players play it because their backhand is weak, but LP doesn't fix that.

I can take on most LP players and win easy. Even 2/3 levels better than me.
In the last 10 years I have only lost 1 match versus LP.

I think you should play LP because you LIKE to play with LP. Choose this from the start and train with it.

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2023, 22:49 
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GarField000 wrote:
what does good or weak side has to do with this?

You meant “strong” or weak side ?
Maybe I did not explain clearly why.
I mentioned it FIRST because a player must first determine if the backhand is indeed their weakside.
As I said, in 95% cases it probably is especially for amateurs but 95% don't seem to understand or accept this reality

GarField000 wrote:
LP takes a lott off training to master well.
.

Agreed. But the Ops question was not about that. The Ops question was when (or whether) he or she should use high aspect ration super long pips in the first place. (long pips on ITTF LARC are pure garbage in the 40+ plastic ball only era)

GarField000 wrote:
If you use LP on your weakside it's still your weak side .. you only win because people can't handle LP..

And your point is ?
Are you saying they should just stick with spinny inverted on their weakside & live under the psychotic delusion that they will be Ma Long one day ?
GarField000 wrote:
If you play versus a player that knows how to play agains LP your are screwed.

True but you are less screwed if you use high aspect ratio super long pips , especially if you take into account the overall total population of opponents you will be facing.
GarField000 wrote:
Many players play it because their backhand is weak, but LP doesn't fix that. .

What is the alternative ? I know. I know. The usual nonsense answer is “Work on your “technique” & train hard”. . But the issue is that however hard a certain player may try (using spinny inverted) their level will not push them beyond their talent limited saturation point. And yet I see player after player wasting away spending most of their time training to work on their weakside & try to force the issue using spinny inverted.
In fact even on your strongside you are never going to get better than your talent limited saturation point. However hard you try you are never going to be a Ma Long (assuming you are already bit older than say 18) . Your consistency is not going to get any better. For an amateur who is destined to stay an amateur, consistency like Ma Long is a pipe dream. Their only salvation is working on their diversity of stroke production improving on various strokes & not just mindless countedriving & straight looping & counterlooping.
Sure, high Aspect Ratio Super Long pips does not fix the wrongly perceived issue that your backhand being bad if you use spinny inverted. But high aspect ratio super long pips does offer a practical alternative to turn that weakness into a weapon if you are first willing to come to terms with the reality that you are never going to be as good as Ma Long using spinny inverted on your backhand.
If you just want to keep lying to others & yourself that you are just playing for fun, then knock yourselves out and play using whatever you like & waste your tabletennis life away. But the problem only comes when you start whining about opponents’ long pips as the one & only reason for your failures. (When I say you I am not talking about you the poster who owns long pips players. I am talking about large number of other players who do not have what it takes like yourself)
GarField000 wrote:
I can take on most LP players and win easy. Even 2/3 levels better than me.
In the last 10 years I have only lost 1 match versus LP.
.

Congratulations.
But what does that reaLLY prove ? Every other player can also be successful like you regardless of their natural styles (& weaknesses) ?
Let us look at the flipside of your success story. I am often amazed looking at two loopers slightly above my level go at each other looping & counter-looping. But I am not at all surprised when these very same players cannot get 2 or 3 points a game from me. It is not because I am that good. It is not because I win ONLY because of my long pips. It is because I have chosen the right blades & rubbers to match my style & strengths & weaknesses as closely as possible. These players cannot win 2 points from me because they cannot handle my style just like you can.

Has it also ever occured to you that you are successful againt long pips more because you yourself use long pips & understand it muchbetter than teh majority of players in tabletennis , who use spinny inverted both sides and avoid practising against long pips players because they think they are just a nuisance ?

GarField000 wrote:
I think you should play LP because you LIKE to play with LP.

I don’t think so.
You should use any given rubber one & only if it best matches your playing style on that side (backhand or forehand)
For example if you are a natural hitter & not a looper on your forehand you should be using short pips with sponge & not spinny inverted. If you are a natural chopper on your backhand you should be using high aspect ratio super long pips & not spinny inverted or social rubbers (SP or anti or LARC LP) .
Sure you can always justify and rationalize using any rubber claiming to doing so because you are playing just to have fun. But if it is the truth, then fine. But more often than not it is a sorry excuse for your failure (to choose the right rubbers & blades to match you style but your choosing rubbers based on the psychotic delusion that you can use certain rubbers just because a pro like Mima Ito or Hou Yingchao can use it. In many cases pros are successful despite using wrong rubbers & blades & bad coaching. This does not mean they maximized their potential)
GarField000 wrote:
Choose this from the start and train with it.

No you cannot choose any rubber from the start. Are you saying a 12 year old kid should “choose” to be a modern defender maybe simply because he or she loves how Joo Sehyuk plays ? As I said before everybody has secret forbidden fantasies of being a modern defender but how many can really pull it off & be able to chop both sides like Joo ?
Yes if you are a very young player new to the sport , you should only start with spinny inverted both sides (& for God’s sake no hardbat or sandpaper LOL) & see where it takes you as you get older.
On the flipside if you are 60 years and starting new in the sport, you may want to start with high aspect ratio super long pips on the backhand (not spinny inverted & not social rubbers & for God’s sake not hardbat or sandpaper) .
And on your forehand test your game with both spinny inverted and short pips with sponge & see where it takes you. For a 60 year old (or for any older player for that matter) starting with both sides spinny inverted is just suicidal


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 00:08 
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thx for you well thought and written reply to me. I love these much more than your are wrong :).

I can agree with you on most points.
But i'm not the person that would use LP to cover up my weakpoint if you do not like to play with it.
You must play what you like to play. When I was a young kid I played with LP and was good at it.
but people just didn't like it and gave away the match just because they hate it.
So i turned back to normal ...... but it always attracks me to play with it. 2019 I started playing with LP again.
Not to cover a weak side (my BH is much better than FH). I tried LP on FH but that just don't work for me.
So now I am using LP on my BH where the FH is still my weakside :).

What I mean that I almost always win from LP is that I know HOW to play against them. I know the weak points and how to take advantage with that.
A good pips player who knows how to use pips I can't win from .. but because most use it only to return a ball and hope the other misses.
I do not play with pimples vs pimples. I use my normal rubbers when playing agains pimples.

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 01:34 
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GarField000 wrote:
thx for you well thought and written reply to me. I love these much more than your are wrong :).
.

Cool
Thanks (mostly I think LOL)
GarField000 wrote:
But i'm not the person that would use LP to cover up my weakpoint if you do not like to play with it.

As I explained before, I was not talking about just you, a person who is very strong against long pips
i was talking about the vast majority of players who use wrong rubbers on their weakside (backhand) for all the wrong reasons.
I asked you what these other players should do, if covering their weakpoints are wrong. But you never answered.
In any match,doesn't almost every player try to cover up their weakpoints from their opponent and try to impose their strong points on their opponent ?
Anyway please tell me what these players should do about their weakside.
Are you saying they should just keep using a certain rubber (such as spinny inverted) just because they "like" it though they were bad with it forever & continue to be bad ?

GarField000 wrote:
I use my normal rubbers

What is a "normal" rubber in table tennis ?
Why is it "normal" ?
What are the other rubbers then ?
What are the users of other rubbers then ?


Last edited by Rachael Hayne on 25 Mar 2023, 03:30, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 03:27 
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Hi Sjan.. :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 05:36 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Hi ====.. :lol:

Iskandar

Hello sir,
I don’t know what this means or who this person is etc but can you please please order these two rubbers below for me from Shopee and ship them to me. ? I will of course pay for the price & of course the shipping cost.
I am unable to register with Shopee from outside Malaysia, indonesia, Thailand etc. I also don't think they can ship outside these countries.
If you are my true friend after all these years you should do this for me for free but I would be happy to pay for 1 sheets each of these for yourself as some sort of middleman fee, that is fine with me.
I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
============================= ============== ===============

https://shopee.co.id/BINTIK-JAHANAM-RAW ... 6a309807d2
Pip Length: 3mm
Pip diameter: 1.6mm
Aspect Ratio= 3 divided by 1.6 = 1.875
Pip spacing 1.5mm
I am very impressed by both the Aspect Ratio & especially the pip spacing. I am not sure exactly what this translates to in terms of pip density but I think it is quite high if compare to other long pips with much wider pip spacing.
Pips with wider pip spacing give less (back) spin but are more disruptive.
Pips with lesser pip spacing give more (back) spin.
(For those not familar, the 2004 Pip Desnity Regulation reduced the pip density from 50 pips per sq.cm down to 30 pips per sq,cm (a whopping 40% decrease) to limit the back spin capabilities of long pips & top & back spin capabilities of short pips as related to Liu Guoliang)
But I like this RAWARONTEXX because pip spacing is smaller and this will give more back spin & of course the Aspect Ratio of 1.875 will also give very high back spin.
I can’t see the pip tops on this rubber whether smooth or rough but it is rough, this would be the ultimate chopper’s rubber with super max Looper Torture Index but it really does not matter if pip tops are smooth because the higher aspect ratio & lower pip spacing will generate plenty of back spin (spin reversal)
Pip alignment is also horizontal to be a chopper rubber

https://shopee.co.id/Karet-bintik-JAHAN ... e7cfb1272a
Pip Length: 3.2 mm
Pip diameter: 2.0 mm
Aspect Ratio= 3.2 divided by 2.0 = 1.6
This is also a promising rubber.
The pip top seems not rough but also not very smooth so it is not bad.
The pip spacing was not listed but looks pretty decent & not too far apart.
This could also be a good chopper rubber with very high Looper Torture Index
Pip alignment is also horizontal to be a chopper rubber

I looked at all other Indonesian high Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips but the pip spacing seems to high & Aspect ratio is not high enough as these above two rubbers. Some of these other ones may be good for close to the table blockers but I want a chopping rubber.


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 06:07 
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Rachael Hayne wrote:
What is a "normal" rubber in table tennis ?

For me normal is inverted rubbers.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
Why is it "normal" ?

Because most players use it.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
What are the other rubbers then ?

Different than normal, so LP, SP or Anti.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
What are the users of other rubbers then ?

Tabletennisplayers

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Setup: Stiga Cybershape Wood / FH:Tibhar Evolution FX-D / BH: S&T Hellfire X 0x


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 06:13 
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Rachael Hayne wrote:
I asked you what these other players should do, if covering their weakpoints are wrong. But you never answered.


My opinion ......
They should play with the rubber they like to play with because both need practise to be better at it.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
In any match,doesn't almost every player try to cover up their weakpoints from their opponent and try to impose their strong points on their opponent ?

Yes you try to find the weak spot in your oponents game, not cover your own.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
Anyway please tell me what these players should do about their weakside.
Are you saying they should just keep using a certain rubber (such as spinny inverted) just because they "like" it though they were bad with it forever & continue to be bad ?


You know what they should do, practise, learn and get better.
And yes they should use the rubber they like, they will be as bad with a different rubber.

I would never ever play with LP because I have get higher rating. I want to use it because I want to play with it.
Because at any level you will hit the point others are better no matter what rating.

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 06:38 
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GarField000 wrote:
Rachael Hayne wrote:
I asked you what these other players should do, if covering their weakpoints are wrong. But you never answered.

My opinion ......
They should play with the rubber they like to play with because both need practise to be better at it.

But not everyone can play with every rubber at the same level regardless of how hard they train

GarField000 wrote:
Yes you try to find the weak spot in your oponents game, not cover your own.

Why ? Is it illegal or unethical to cover my weaknesses ?

[quote="GarField000”]
You know what they should do, practise, learn and get better.
.[/quote]
I explained this before. Every player has a saturation point for using any style or rubber or stroke which is limited by the natural talent they were born with. They are just no going to get any better (for a given stroke & given style & given rubber) however hard they practice & train 25 hours a day 367 days an year.
I see player after player and club after club where players with this wrong mentality wasting away using wrong rubber, wrong styles that don’t match their playing style (which is usually very different on backhand & forehand especially for most amateurs) and wasting most of their time with the same two strokes, counter driving or straight looping & counter looping


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 06:48 
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GarField000 wrote:
Rachael Hayne wrote:
What is a "normal" rubber in table tennis ?

For me normal is inverted rubbers.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
Why is it "normal" ?

Because most players use it.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
What are the other rubbers then ?

Different than normal, so LP, SP or Anti.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
What are the users of other rubbers then ?

Tabletennisplayers


You obviously missed the point as to why I even asked this question.
Simply because most players use spinny inverted does not make it "normal". It is like saying that people with alternative lifestyles are not "normal".
This is actually a subtle form of brainwashing used by booster supremacists to make pips / anti users undersatdn where the pips / anti users stand in the tabletennis social hierarchy.
You should check what the antonym is for normal. It is abnormal or deviant.

So if you are a normal socially well adjusted human, you would refer to spinny inverted rubber as spinny inverted or just inverted & not use phrases like "normal rubber" or "regular rubber" or "normal players" or "regular players" etc


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 07:34 
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GarField000 wrote:
I would never ever play with LP because I have get higher rating. I want to use it because I want to play with it.
Because at any level you will hit the point others are better no matter what rating.

Did I say someone should play with LP just to get a higher rating ?
You keep saying one should play LP (or a certain rubber) just & simply because they "like" it.
I just disagree with that from a compettive standpoint.
If someone wants to lie & keep claiming they are playing only for fun, then they can use whatever they want.
The primary question is not whether one should use a specific rubber just because they like it (maybe just because may be their favorite pro hero uses it) . The primary issue is whether a rubber is compatible to a player's style , consistency, skill level etc.

On the other hand, a player's rating would naturally most likely go up if they use a rubber compatible to their style & clear playing objectives. And I do not see anything wrong is using your rating increase as one of the many measure of improvement in your performance


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 07:40 
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Maybe it's because my native is not english, but I think you make a big deal out off nothing and have a different translation for the word normal.
I'll leave it at that.

Let's agree to disagree. Or not.

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 07:51 
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Rachael Hayne wrote:
Did I say someone should play with LP just to get a higher rating ?
You keep saying one should play LP (or a certain rubber) just & simply because they "like" it.
I just disagree with that from a compettive standpoint.

Now you disagree with yourself. This sport is also fun and not only how much you win. So in your competitive standpoint you say you should play where you win the most.

Rachael Hayne wrote:
If someone wants to lie & keep claiming they are playing only for fun, then they can use whatever they want.
The primary question is not whether one should use a specific rubber just because they like it (maybe just because may be their favorite pro hero uses it) . The primary issue is whether a rubber is compatible to a player's style , consistency, skill level etc.

On the other hand, a player's rating would naturally most likely go up if they use a rubber compatible to their style & clear playing objectives. And I do not see anything wrong is using your rating increase as one of the many measure of improvement in your performance


Is it not the case you have more fun if you play a style that fits to you?
So you agree with me :). If you dont have fun in what you are doing you will never be very good at it (offcourse there are exceptions).

You or me are taking things to literal. Or we just disagree. I play this game competitve because I like it.
So if that makes me a liar because i play for fun so be it. I do want to win my matches, but If I must play only with short pips i will quit because i dont like it.

The End

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