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PostPosted: 20 May 2013, 11:19 
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wturber wrote:
It seems to me that the real problem is that celluloid is a niche product made by only a few companies. The lack of manufacturing diversity does carry some real risk and does, IMO, warrant investigating alternatives.


What exactly do you mean by saying that the risk is REAL? What risk?

Here are some celluloid manufacturers:

MERTHAN INTERNATIONAL TRADE CO., LTD. http://www.tradekey.com/company/MERTHAN ... 65511.html

Hindustan Celluloid Plastic Inds http://www.startlocal.in/manufacturing_ ... 40669.html

Kengshan cellulose manufacturing co.,ltd http://caojianxmg.en.hisupplier.com/

CELLULOID INTERNATIONAL INDUSTRIES LIMITED http://www.celluloid.com.cn/Company_profile.asp


Jiujiang Celluloid Industrial Co. Ltd http://www.globalsources.com/si/FL/Jiuj ... 149681.htm

Here are more links: http://www.alibaba.com/corporations/cel ... ---50.html


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PostPosted: 20 May 2013, 11:39 
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Smartguy wrote:
wturber wrote:
It seems to me that the real problem is that celluloid is a niche product made by only a few companies. The lack of manufacturing diversity does carry some real risk and does, IMO, warrant investigating alternatives.


What exactly do you mean by saying that the risk is REAL? What risk?

Here are some celluloid manufacturers:

MERTHAN INTERNATIONAL TRADE CO., LTD. http://www.tradekey.com/company/MERTHAN ... 65511.html

Hindustan Celluloid Plastic Inds http://www.startlocal.in/manufacturing_ ... 40669.html

Kengshan cellulose manufacturing co.,ltd http://caojianxmg.en.hisupplier.com/

CELLULOID INTERNATIONAL INDUSTRIES LIMITED http://www.celluloid.com.cn/Company_profile.asp


Jiujiang Celluloid Industrial Co. Ltd http://www.globalsources.com/si/FL/Jiuj ... 149681.htm

Here are more links: http://www.alibaba.com/corporations/cel ... ---50.html


You'll want to dig deeper and find out how many of those companies make celluloid sheet as is used for table tennis as opposed for guitar picks or fountain pen barrels. Further, you need to be careful about the term "celluloid". Some products are marketed as "celluloid" that aren't truly celluloid. There are many cellulosic plastic that are not celluloid.

As for the risk, celluloid used to be made in more diverse locations. The diversity of manufacturing locations for celluloid has shrunk. I think that signifies an increased risk. I don't think it signifies a crisis or even a near crisis. But it is reason for concern and vigilance. But I would think that F.I.T. is up to the task of keeping that vigil.

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PostPosted: 20 May 2013, 12:35 
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wturber wrote:
As for the risk, celluloid used to be made in more diverse locations. The diversity of manufacturing locations for celluloid has shrunk. I think that signifies an increased risk.


So, let me ask you again.

What risk?

You said "real risk". Again, what "real risk"? I do not mean imagined risk, I specifically mean "what real risk".

Because, as far as I can see, there is no real risk at all. No risk. There has never been a problem and there is no real reason to expect any problem.

About the "shrunk diversity of manufacturing locations". What is the problem here? Do you expect them to form a cartel? If yes, what is the basis for such an expectation? If not, what sort of risk do you mean? What facts do you have to justify this statement about "risk"?


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PostPosted: 20 May 2013, 14:53 
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Smartguy wrote:
wturber wrote:
As for the risk, celluloid used to be made in more diverse locations. The diversity of manufacturing locations for celluloid has shrunk. I think that signifies an increased risk.


So, let me ask you again.

What risk?

You said "real risk". Again, what "real risk"? I do not mean imagined risk, I specifically mean "what real risk".

Because, as far as I can see, there is no real risk at all. No risk. There has never been a problem and there is no real reason to expect any problem.

About the "shrunk diversity of manufacturing locations". What is the problem here? Do you expect them to form a cartel? If yes, what is the basis for such an expectation? If not, what sort of risk do you mean? What facts do you have to justify this statement about "risk"?


As an industry shrinks in scale the chances for disruptions that affect it go up. As an industry shrinks in location diversity the odds of disruptions from things like natural disasters go up. The flooding in Thailand is a recent example. Every hear the saying, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." That's the basic concern. We aren't down to one "basket", but there are fewer of them.

As I said, I don't consider the risk to be particularly severe or high. But it does increase as these changes occur. So there is legitimate reason to pay extra attention to the issue.

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PostPosted: 21 May 2013, 01:03 
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wturber wrote:
...the odds of disruptions from things like natural disasters go up. The flooding in Thailand ... "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." ... I don't consider the risk to be particularly severe or high.


I see, "not PARTICULARLY severe or high". The next step down would be simply "severe or high". I understand the message, thank you.

OK, I remember Alex preferring to keep it friendly here, so I am not going to speculate about your possible motivation or your way of thinking. The fact is that I presented 5 concrete links to manufacturers of celluloid sheets from different countries and a link to other links, still you countered it with risk of putting eggs in ONE basket. ONE, after I showed you FIVE and more. There is no logic in that, and I am afraid I recognize a pattern of scare mongering we know so well from politics.

So far, 4 fake reasons to switch to plastic balls have been presented to us: worldwide ban of celluloid (lie), general hazards of celluloid (lie, because irrelevant under usual circumstances), production hazards (irrelevant, because easy to handle) and last not least "monopoly" or "disruptions" (irrelevant, pure scare mongering).

OK, I am looking forward to what is coming next, I am sure it will, there is a lot of money at stake.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2013, 17:40 
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I don't think Wturber is scare mongering, just supporting his statements. I don't think Jay has any vested interest in changing to plastic balls given his history on the subject. ITTF is probably scare mongering though considering the seemingly fake reasons put up to get rid of celluloid balls and there seems to be vested interests all over the place there.

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PostPosted: 21 May 2013, 18:08 
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Here is scare-mongering...


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PostPosted: 21 May 2013, 18:28 
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I believe this is the Patent for USA: http://patents.com/us-8105183.html

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PostPosted: 21 May 2013, 18:48 
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The patent seems to be for a two-piece ball. I wonder if thats why the single piece ball fell out of favour?

Interesting it covers balls to 48mm! Hope it doesn't give Adham any ideas! :swear:

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PostPosted: 21 May 2013, 19:31 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
The patent seems to be for a two-piece ball. I wonder if thats why the single piece ball fell out of favour?

Interesting it covers balls to 48mm! Hope it doesn't give Adham any ideas! :swear:


Too late! 8)

I'd bet you USD$10,000 that Adham is the man behind the patent. ;)

(...It isn't that hard to see through all the smoke and mirrors...)


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PostPosted: 23 May 2013, 04:41 
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SLICK AND NOISY.

One more problem about the PB has emerged by now..

PB is reported to become rather unplayable as soon as after a hour's play, through getting something ivory-slick and not gripping on the rubber surface well. The reports sound quite truthful. I have some used samples of Barna, Aurora and GO-GO balls (seemingly made of plastic) and they really look, feel and play like a polished glass globe, that is no friction on impacts.
Such a poor PB's playability is going to cause a true financial collapse for those individual players using tt-robots. The balls with less friction have to be replaced over and over again for getting less spinny, you understand.

The early loss of grippiness seems to be a common "weak spot" with any plastic material of any chemical composition. The well-known fact of mid-80's table tennis industry is that the "novelty" ball of plastic from Dunlop (Barna Super) had failed to catch on the market as being too noisy and slippery .

Dear Mr. Kuhn,
Are you aware of the surface friction instability inherent to any plastics?
Do you think it acceptable for a table tennis ball to have to be replaced just after each one match for a total loss of grippiness ?


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PostPosted: 24 May 2013, 01:34 
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+1

This is the only post I have ever agreed with Igor in the last 3 years.

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PostPosted: 24 May 2013, 05:44 
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Smartguy wrote:
wturber wrote:
...the odds of disruptions from things like natural disasters go up. The flooding in Thailand ... "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." ... I don't consider the risk to be particularly severe or high.


I see, "not PARTICULARLY severe or high". The next step down would be simply "severe or high". I understand the message, thank you.


I also said thing like "not a crisis", "is something that should be handled by manufacturers - doesn't need ITTF involvement"
Smartguy wrote:
OK, I remember Alex preferring to keep it friendly here, so I am not going to speculate about your possible motivation or your way of thinking. The fact is that I presented 5 concrete links to manufacturers of celluloid sheets from different countries and a link to other links, still you countered it with risk of putting eggs in ONE basket. ONE, after I showed you FIVE and more. There is no logic in that, and I am afraid I recognize a pattern of scare mongering we know so well from politics.


Actually, you'd have to dig deeper to find if ANY of those five actually make celluloid sheet themselves as oppose to farming it out and also dig deeper to see if the make the kind of sheet used to make ping pong balls. Your facts are very superfiical. Further, I used the "all eggs in one basket" to illustrate the point. I made it clear that we are not down to one basket.

Smartguy wrote:

So far, 4 fake reasons to switch to plastic balls have been presented to us: worldwide ban of celluloid (lie), general hazards of celluloid (lie, because irrelevant under usual circumstances), production hazards (irrelevant, because easy to handle) and last not least "monopoly" or "disruptions" (irrelevant, pure scare mongering).


And who is it that was front and center debunking the first three? ME!! I spent many many hours on it. Keep that in mind if you find yourself speculating about my motivations.

As for the fourth, you are simply wrong. Here is what I said originally:

"It seems to me that the real problem is that celluloid is a niche product made by only a few companies. The lack of manufacturing diversity does carry some real risk and does, IMO, warrant investigating alternatives. But ramrodding such endeavors through by using false proclamations (the ban, 80% the same as nitroglycerin, its why Hollywood is going digital) and failing to provide support for the claimed safety concerns is not the way to go about it. That's the real problem IMO. "

I did not give the increased risk as a justification to convert to plastic balls. At best, right now it is merely a reason to be considering future options. But it is a legitimate reason for TT manufacturers (not the ITTF) to have some concern. There is an increased risk when you reduce the diversity of your resources. That's basic business/economics. I gave a good example that you seem happy to ignore. So I won't bother giving more. But such examples are easy to find.

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PostPosted: 25 May 2013, 10:11 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
The patent seems to be for a two-piece ball. I wonder if thats why the single piece ball fell out of favour?

Interesting it covers balls to 48mm! Hope it doesn't give Adham any ideas! :swear:


Read it all the way through. It includes a one piece ball specifically (Claim 31.)

Here's the patent on rotationally molding a seamless ball. Anyone know if Huilin, Zhang is an ITTF official or is related to one?

http://www.google.com/patents/WO2010111 ... -citations

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PostPosted: 30 May 2013, 01:24 
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Anyone find news on a reply from the ITTF on this issue yet?


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