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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 08:29 
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rocket222 wrote:
If I try to cut backspin ball with CWX 0.5 it usually goes very high and is easy for opponent to smash...


It is also my experience that chopping a chop with LP is very risky and something I discovered soon after going from anti to LP on my BH. The ball will go back with little or no spin similar to anti but unlike with anti it is more difficult to control the height which leaves you open to attack. The best approach is to learn to attack anything with backspin. Push hard forward and up. It doesn't have to be fast and it may rarely be a winner, but it's reliable. I have to force myself to do this, it's not my natural inclination to attack on BH. In the meantime, I have learnt with practice to push back a chop with a more inverted stroke but I never feel entirely safe doing it.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 10:56 
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Dusty054 wrote:
rocket222 wrote:
If I try to cut backspin ball with CWX 0.5 it usually goes very high and is easy for opponent to smash...


It is also my experience that chopping a chop with LP is very risky and something I discovered soon after going from anti to LP on my BH. The ball will go back with little or no spin similar to anti but unlike with anti it is more difficult to control the height which leaves you open to attack. The best approach is to learn to attack anything with backspin. Push hard forward and up. It doesn't have to be fast and it may rarely be a winner, but it's reliable. I have to force myself to do this, it's not my natural inclination to attack on BH. In the meantime, I have learnt with practice to push back a chop with a more inverted stroke but I never feel entirely safe doing it.


I have to agree with this. :up: As a rule, I chop every top spin and "roll" or attack harder every underspin with bh pips.

I have tried numerous times all the "good" grippy pips with sponge, and pushing inverted like against push seems to be impossible for me - the height of the push is too hard to control and the the result (even when succeeding) is not effective. Well, I can't push with inverted bh either... althought I am very good in pushing inverted FH.

So the solution is to play with half grippy sponged pips, like Dtecs 0.5 that I am now using - the "roll" shot is easiest to control that way. It was easy with Agenda 1.0 too. With sponged grippy pips the "roll" is more insecure and not as efficient.

SIMPLE PRACTICE DRILL THAT I TEACH WANNA-BE PIPS PLAYERS: I chop from my bh to their fh and bh alternatively and they loop from the fh and "roll" from the bh. If you get that drill consistent, then you are ready for the real game!


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 17:07 
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I disagree with Roy and Dusty054. It is not more difficult to push backspin than to "bump" it (in German we call the stroke "Druckschupf" meaning something like "presspush"), it's more a matter of preference (and exercise of course). This stroke is the standard stroke against backspin made by lp and anti push-blockers.

rocket222 describes his style as "I play rather classical defence than modern". If this is true, after the stroke he is at a severe tactical disadvantage. To execute the "bump" effectively, you have to take the ball early. Therefore you have to stay at the table. It yields a no-spin or light top-spin ball with medium speed (some users might disagree with this, but you have to compare speed and spin with a fast topspin from an attacker). If your opponent is clever and focused, he is able to hit a fast topspin ball against this, catching you at the table. As a defender, you should always avoid this situation.

I don't say that this stroke may not be effective. In fact, for variation's sake I do it myself from time to time. But in general, a defender is better off pushing long with good placement, because he can back up more easily. Just have a look at videos from high-ranked defenders. Almost everyone of them uses the push as basic stroke when starting a rally. I am hard pressed to think of professionals using aggressive pimples strokes regularly (Akerstrom, whom I consider more of a push-blocker, Filus often uses a side-swipe to the long fh, and the guy associated with leatherback (Liu Song?), perhaps some more).

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 17:17 
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0x556c69 wrote:
But in general, a defender is better off pushing long with good placement, because he can back up more easily. Just have a look at videos from high-ranked defenders. Almost everyone of them uses the push as basic stroke when starting a rally. I am hard pressed to think of professionals using aggressive pimples strokes regularly (Akerstrom, whom I consider more of a push-blocker, Filus often uses a side-swipe to the long fh, and the guy associated with leatherback (Liu Song?), perhaps some more).

Well, you are right on that. :) I see the easiness of Gionis push against anything - it goes secure, low and loaded... But I just can't understand how that is done, I just fail miserably. :swear:

And the problem is like you describe is that I am close to table, when I bumb the ball of the bounce and it reduces the variation I play. On the other hand, the the bumb is much more difficult (for some reason) for the opponent than slight top spin done by inverted.

Just to say that there are many pips players that can't bumb at all and their push is horrible, so learning to bumb in another way to go.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 19:35 
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I agree with 0x556c69. If almost all of professional LP users do a horizontal push, it has to be the right technique. The problem is height of this play. It's hard to play it low. But 0x556c69 gave the solution- practice it with partner every training like chopping and other strokes. I think me and You will learn it, as 0x556c69 said, in 3 month, no more time is needed. Did You remember your first steps learning fh loop? It's similar situation i think :)
So I wait for my VKM which will arrive next week, I will buy red P1R 1.0 (i have black sheet, but I play with black chinese Hurricane 8 with fh...) and i'm going to start practice hard this stroke :)

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 22:18 
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Roy wrote:
0x556c69 wrote:
But in general, a defender is better off pushing long with good placement, because he can back up more easily. Just have a look at videos from high-ranked defenders. Almost everyone of them uses the push as basic stroke when starting a rally. I am hard pressed to think of professionals using aggressive pimples strokes regularly (Akerstrom, whom I consider more of a push-blocker, Filus often uses a side-swipe to the long fh, and the guy associated with leatherback (Liu Song?), perhaps some more).

Well, you are right on that. :) I see the easiness of Gionis push against anything - it goes secure, low and loaded... But I just can't understand how that is done, I just fail miserably. :swear:

And the problem is like you describe is that I am close to table, when I bumb the ball of the bounce and it reduces the variation I play. On the other hand, the the bumb is much more difficult (for some reason) for the opponent than slight top spin done by inverted.

Just to say that there are many pips players that can't bumb at all and their push is horrible, so learning to bumb in another way to go.


Actually watch carefully coz half the time or more if the backspin is not light he twiddles and uses inverted. He also uses the side chop sometimes (with pips).

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 22:54 
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rocket222 wrote:
I agree with 0x556c69. If almost all of professional LP users do a horizontal push, it has to be the right technique. The problem is height of this play. It's hard to play it low. But 0x556c69 gave the solution- practice it with partner every training like chopping and other strokes. I think me and You will learn it, as 0x556c69 said, in 3 month, no more time is needed. Did You remember your first steps learning fh loop? It's similar situation i think :)
So I wait for my VKM which will arrive next week, I will buy red P1R 1.0 (i have black sheet, but I play with black chinese Hurricane 8 with fh...) and i'm going to start practice hard this stroke :)


It's all great to try and copy professional players, with one caveat, though - we are not professionals and are not playing against them either. Just trying to put into context why 'just keep pushing with LP' is not always appealing or may be even optimal.

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 23:50 
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rocket222 wrote:
I agree with 0x556c69. If almost all of professional LP users do a horizontal push, it has to be the right technique. The problem is height of this play. It's hard to play it low. But 0x556c69 gave the solution- practice it with partner every training like chopping and other strokes. I think me and You will learn it, as 0x556c69 said, in 3 month, no more time is needed. Did You remember your first steps learning fh loop? It's similar situation i think :)
So I wait for my VKM which will arrive next week, I will buy red P1R 1.0 (i have black sheet, but I play with black chinese Hurricane 8 with fh...) and i'm going to start practice hard this stroke :)

Why do you change equipment? You got a defensive blade already. Why swap it for another one? Why change your CWX 0.5? Is something wrong with it? You will not improve, if you change your equipment. Let me be nasty:

- Joo pushes well with Curl P1R 1,6, Chtchetinine, Kleinert, CWX with Curl P1R 1,0,
- Fab (sort of german leatherback, instructor at WSA) Curl P4 1,5, Shiono P4 0,5,
- Liu Song and Melnik (leatherback) got along quite well with CK531A OX
- Grothe and Seefried use D'Tecs OX (search for vids of them on youtube)
- Krmaschek uses FS 755 OX (-> youtube),
- Filus, Pavlovitch use FL3 1,3,
- Gionis and lots of others FL2 1,1
...

For every rubber you'll find someone at professional, semi-professional or very high level playing well with it. All pips do more or less the same. "More" and "less" are not that much apart from each other in any case, ITTF rubber regulations are taking care of that. Of course you should find a rubber that suits your personal likings (slow, fast, sticky, hard, soft, whatever). But when found, stick to it. Changing a rubber will not make you a better player. If something does not work it is NOT the rubber but the one swinging the racket.

pgpg wrote:
It's all great to try and copy professional players, with one caveat, though - we are not professionals and are not playing against them either. Just trying to put into context why 'just keep pushing with LP' is not always appealing or may be even optimal.

I disagree with your reasoning. Sure, we're not professionals and our opponents are neither. But the basic tactics don't change when reducing the level of skill on both sides. Of course I take advantage of pushblocker play, if my opponent is liable to fall for it. But you must be able to do otherwise and do it in a consistent way. As I said, you will get into trouble if you have to defend because your opponent can attack your pips stroke. You will run into those at every level. Pure pushblockers simply loose in this case.

My opinion for DEFENDERS: your fist concern should be to get your primary strategy safe. That means consistent pushing in every situation, because you want to DEFEND. You don't want the easy point by deception/surprise. If you can get it, fine. But it is an addition that you do not really need. So it is not wise to optimise your practice and equipment on it.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 00:02 
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I don't strongly disagree with your advise - just pointing out that in real life sometimes opponent decides to start sending soft no-spin balls to my BH that are pretty high too. I frequently choose to attack those with LP instead of pushing them back - I guess you are saying push is preferred stroke here.

Also - 'leatherback' coach is Sun Jian Fei (not Liu Song).

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 00:04 
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0x556c69 wrote:
Am I the only one to think, that it does not matter which pips you use? You can push with all of them. And you can side-swipe or punch a ball with all of them. Pushing is easier the thicker, the two other strokes the thinner the sponge is. A compromise can be using a thin sponge.

No. Most of us agree it doesn't matter in terms of effectiveness, so long as the ball is low and well placed. BUT- the stroke and bat angle change significantly based on the amount of grip the sponge has, and this is the issue the OP has. It's a technique thing.

The grippier the topsheet/and or the thicker the sponge (which add grip), the more horizontal a stroke you can use and still keep the ball low because there is more throw angle. grip=increased throw usually.

The slipperier the rubber the more of a push or vertical stroke your push must have (like a push/bump/chop block), otherwise the ball will just pop up as rocket described.

Want evidence of this? Get a bat with 1.5 Feint long 3, and push a push. Then get a bat with OX Dtecs, and use the exact same stroke. Dtecs will shoot the ball up into the heavens.

I will say this, the flatter stroke (bump/push) is deceptive for different reasons. The reversal and speed of it surprises people because it becomes more of an attack stroke. The horizontal stroke (inverted style push) is deceptive because aesthetically it looks like an inverted push, and opponents will pop those up treating them as such.

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 00:17 
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Japsican wrote:
0x556c69 wrote:
Am I the only one to think, that it does not matter which pips you use? You can push with all of them. And you can side-swipe or punch a ball with all of them. Pushing is easier the thicker, the two other strokes the thinner the sponge is. A compromise can be using a thin sponge.

No. Most of us agree it doesn't matter in terms of effectiveness, so long as the ball is low and well placed. BUT- the stroke and bat angle change significantly based on the amount of grip the sponge has, and this is the issue the OP has. It's a technique thing.

The grippier the topsheet/and or the thicker the sponge (which add grip), the more horizontal a stroke you can use and still keep the ball low.

The slipperier the rubber the more of a flat push or vertical stroke your push must have, otherwise the ball will just pop up as rocket described.

Want evidence of this? Get a bat with 1.5 Feint long 3, and push a push. Then get a bat with OX Dtecs, and use the exact same stroke. Dtecs will shoot the ball up into the heavens.

I will say this, the flatter stroke (bump/push) is deceptive for different reasons. The reversal and speed of it surprises people because it becomes more of an attack stroke. The horizontal stroke (inverted style push) is deceptive because aesthetically it looks like an inverted push, and opponents will pop those up treating them as such.
Agree with Japs. ;)

I should add that,

pushing / slicing a back spin ball is essentially counter spinning the ball, and counter spin is never an LP forte, that belong to inverted.

LP designed to be used for following the spin rather than counter spin, hence.

A flat jab or BH drive, or even looping with LP is more logical choice. :)

And,

No defender could defend, nor He or She has to, when the opponent did not attack. ;)

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 00:35 
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BeGo wrote:
Japsican wrote:
0x556c69 wrote:
Am I the only one to think, that it does not matter which pips you use? You can push with all of them. And you can side-swipe or punch a ball with all of them. Pushing is easier the thicker, the two other strokes the thinner the sponge is. A compromise can be using a thin sponge.

No. Most of us agree it doesn't matter in terms of effectiveness, so long as the ball is low and well placed. BUT- the stroke and bat angle change significantly based on the amount of grip the sponge has, and this is the issue the OP has. It's a technique thing.

The grippier the topsheet/and or the thicker the sponge (which add grip), the more horizontal a stroke you can use and still keep the ball low.

The slipperier the rubber the more of a flat push or vertical stroke your push must have, otherwise the ball will just pop up as rocket described.

Want evidence of this? Get a bat with 1.5 Feint long 3, and push a push. Then get a bat with OX Dtecs, and use the exact same stroke. Dtecs will shoot the ball up into the heavens.

I will say this, the flatter stroke (bump/push) is deceptive for different reasons. The reversal and speed of it surprises people because it becomes more of an attack stroke. The horizontal stroke (inverted style push) is deceptive because aesthetically it looks like an inverted push, and opponents will pop those up treating them as such.
Agree with Japs. ;)

I should add that,

pushing / slicing a back spin ball is essentially counter spinning the ball, and counter spin is never an LP forte, that belong to inverted.

LP designed to be used for following the spin rather than counter spin, hence.

A flat jab or BH drive, or even looping with LP is more logical choice. :)

And,

No defender could defend, nor He or She has to, when the opponent did not attack. ;)

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Well said everyone. I will just add this. I think you should just do whatever shot you want against a push depending on what's comfortable for you. The only time you should think to change that is if your choice of shot is losing you the point (either due to failing or opponent blasting it often). Until then you can do as you please

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 06:09 
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BeGo wrote:
I should add that,
pushing / slicing a back spin ball is essentially counter spinning the ball, and counter spin is never an LP forte, that belong to inverted.
LP designed to be used for following the spin rather than counter spin, hence.
A flat jab or BH drive, or even looping with LP is more logical choice. :)
And,
No defender could defend, nor He or She has to, when the opponent did not attack. ;)

You're right with both of your statements. Yes, it is more difficult to use LP for pushing, especially agaist nospin or backspin because of its design. But IT CAN BE DONE with great consistency. At the same time, most LP are really slow, so the drive, flat jab or loop is relatively slow and will be killled even by intermediate opponents, if they pay attention. Of course, deception helps there so it evens out a bit. This is the technical and mechanic side of the problem.

The real problem is - as stated before - the tactical situation. A DEFENDER defends. This does not change, even if the attacker refuses to attack. In this case the defender plays it safe, waiting for the attack. By saying "playing it safe" I do not mean "do never attack" but I mean "ever keep in a situation, where you can bring the ball back". This is simply not the case, if you are doing stuff that requires you staying at the table. But it is the case if you are pushing. So pushing is not the way to WIN the point, but the way NOT TO LOOSE it.

How goes the saying? The best offense wins games, the best defense wins championships? Concerning TT-playing styles I would formulate it rather as "attack wins points - defense is about not loosing points. He/She who does not loose points wins".

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 06:37 
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Slow? Tell that to Jian Li. Or better yet, tell that to his opponents. Jishan Liang (2700) and Riuchao Chen (2600). they struggle mightily with his LP pushes/bumps. Next Level can attest to how difficult they are to deal with. :lol:

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 07:03 
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@Japsican: You are right. Yet I did not say, that "bumping" isn't a doable strategy. You don't reach 2700 USATT without some quality strokes, do you? And I'm quite sure, Jian Li is able to push.

Yet, I still insist that generally a defender is better off pushing - think of me as stubborn, I play defensively ;) . You might know this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=61&v=I4hdZyD5GM8. That is, what I mean by playing it safe...

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