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OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=37570		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  infernowasif34 [ 29 Dec 2020, 18:14 ]
Post subject:  OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
So I've been training with a coach for a while now (6+ years). I'm 21 and around 2200 USATT level. And there's something that has been boggling me for a while now. Before I became a real modern defender (style like Gionis) I used to play more of a pushblocking style and relied on my forehand. The reason is simple, I use TSP P1R 1 mm and thought it was the best, and if I played anyone with a strong topspin, all my chops would sail long, and it didn't change despite years of multiball training and stroke experimentation. So I wasn't confident in going back and chopping. My coach is in the national team and was the national champ a few years back, but the problem is we hardly have real choppers as Im from a small country. There is no one who can teach chopping strokes and tactics properly.

Fortunately the problem quickly disappeared as I switched to Palio CK531a OX. All my chops were landing after a fewweeks of adjustment and my chopping just got more solid with months of multiball and single ball training.

My question is, why/how do so many advanced choppers use sponge on their backhand? I tried TSP 0.5 mm for a day as well but again, my chops would be high and it would sail long if there was strong topspin. Most Japanese choppers use 0.5 mm sponge on their backhand and top pros usually use 1.5 mm. Yet when they train, they are super consistent and can get back strong balls as well. I really don't understand because I've tried controlling sponge for a few years and it doesn't get any better with strong topspins :/ opinions would be appreciated!

N.B. My chopping stroke is a lot like leatherback (I watched his training video with Sun Jianfei).
Author:  skilless_slapper [ 30 Dec 2020, 02:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
You can do more with sponge, and at the pro level they need the extra options. Look at videos of gustaf erikson for a good ox chopper you might like.

The pros also have... pro training! With hours to practice and partners to battle. With thick sponge you have to brush the ball quicker and it becomes more inverted like. The ox pips will have more passive reversal and allow for slower, less precise swings.

From the videos I've seen the pros arent trying to vary their bh chops much, in regards to lp. So they just want to load up the spin. Ox lp depends more on the other player and is more predictable.
Author:  charmander defender [ 30 Dec 2020, 08:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
In my opinion , the pros videos are great to learn proper leg movement, service returns, services, techniques for the bh and fh topspin etc.... but we cannot pay so much attention to their equipment. Do you think Ma Long's rubbers are just the same as the ones you can buy at any tt store? do you really think the antis and the lps perform in the same way as the ones you can get online?

Just to give an example . How do you know if the sponge is treated? if you burn the sponge , you gain control in your chops so the TSP in 1.5 mmm will perform differently and you will believe the pro player is playing with the same rubber as the one you have at home .

The pros world is a different story as far as equipment is concerned . Then, when some amateurs treat their rubbers some people criticise them very hard, too hard in fact .Of course, your favourite pro player ,whom you love so much , is idolised but maybe , he/ she is one of the players that to survive in the pro tour and have a chance to compete has to treat their equipment. I do understand this.It is their profession, they live on that.Therefore ,alll the amateurs who decide to treat their equipment should be seen in the same light as the pros .Try to understand that at some levels many people boost the inverted ( even in the amateur world) , hence , treating the defensive rubber has its place .

I do not encourage treating the equipment , just say the rules are unenforceable .
Author:  vanjr [ 30 Dec 2020, 11:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
How fast is your blade? Try a general purpose defense rated blade and keep the same rubber.
Author:  haggisv [ 30 Dec 2020, 15:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
A sponge on a LP rubber actually helps absorb the power of a fast loop, and fast loops is pretty much all that the professionals play.
Author:  infernowasif34 [ 31 Dec 2020, 03:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
skilless_slapper wrote:
You can do more with sponge, and at the pro level they need the extra options. Look at videos of gustaf erikson for a good ox chopper you might like.

The pros also have... pro training! With hours to practice and partners to battle. With thick sponge you have to brush the ball quicker and it becomes more inverted like. The ox pips will have more passive reversal and allow for slower, less precise swings.


- My coach is actually the 2017 national champion of our country and we train 3-4 times a week, there are other high level players too, and he can loop on my chops all day long(and also give sickk multiball), tho it is tiring for him :P The bigger issue for me is that there are hardly any pro choppers in my country so they cannot show me how to chop, especially with sponge. But what you said makes a lot of sense and it feels like the dots connected, thanks man! While I have a proper stroke, I don't brush the ball at all. I only do a downward motion starting from my shoulder or down and forward depending on the amount of spin, and with palio ox I can keep the balls pretty low, and consistent. This explains why I literally can't chop with sponge pimples. It's because I don't brush the ball at all, let alone brush it more than the incoming spin.

skilless_slapper wrote:
From the videos I've seen the pros arent trying to vary their bh chops much, in regards to lp. So they just want to load up the spin. Ox lp depends more on the other player and is more predictable.


This also makes sense! Players at my level are pretty consistent loopers, and they can loop and push alternatively (or loop multiple times consecutively) well, and when I eventually chop a high ball they can just finish or place that really well. So I really have to work my butt off with my forehand to bring out matches against them, otherwise if I just go back and chop, more often than not I lose out. No option to put my own spin also bites me when they give a no spin serve, or when I chop a block/counterhit. Thanks for your input! I'll probably switch to 0.5 mm tsp p1r again to prepare for the future.
Author:  infernowasif34 [ 31 Dec 2020, 03:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
vanjr wrote:
How fast is your blade? Try a general purpose defense rated blade and keep the same rubber.

Used sponged pimples both on a VKM Original and VKM offensive. Currenty using Palio OX with VKM offensive.
Author:  skilless_slapper [ 31 Dec 2020, 04:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
The p1r is fairly grippy, and if you only do the bump-chop as I call it (the same style I use with my ox d.tecs for most 'chops') then you'll basically send back only dead balls or very little spin. The low friction d.tecs allows a lot of passive reversal even on a bump chop. So if they loop heavy, the return will be quite a bit of back spin with minimal effort.
Author:  infernowasif34 [ 31 Dec 2020, 04:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
skilless_slapper wrote:
The p1r is fairly grippy, and if you only do the bump-chop as I call it (the same style I use with my ox d.tecs for most 'chops') then you'll basically send back only dead balls or very little spin. The low friction d.tecs allows a lot of passive reversal even on a bump chop. So if they loop heavy, the return will be quite a bit of back spin with minimal effort.


I'm not sure if it's the bump chop though (basically how you play with low friction rubbers right?).

Attaching a video soon!

https://youtu.be/86DJ0lYr7ow

I've made some adjustments compared to the video and now I actively try to keep my chops low instead of just putting them on the table like in the vid.
Author:  skilless_slapper [ 31 Dec 2020, 05:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
infernowasif34 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
The p1r is fairly grippy, and if you only do the bump-chop as I call it (the same style I use with my ox d.tecs for most 'chops') then you'll basically send back only dead balls or very little spin. The low friction d.tecs allows a lot of passive reversal even on a bump chop. So if they loop heavy, the return will be quite a bit of back spin with minimal effort.


I'm not sure if it's the bump chop though (basically how you play with low friction rubbers right?).

Attaching a video soon!

https://youtu.be/86DJ0lYr7ow

I've made some adjustments compared to the video and now I actively try to keep my chops low instead of just putting them on the table like in the vid.


That one looks like you're doing a decent amount of brushing on it, so not a true bump-chop. If you add sponge and get more friction it will be less forgiving, so if you don't brush fast enough then you send back a high, weak ball. The bump-chop (to me) is more of a flat, directed shot. I use it to keep the ball low and place it well, so they're forced to loop/hit the ball upward and not smash it. If you apply a lot of back spin, that has a similar effect in that they have to convert more energy to going upward instead of forward (provided your chop isn't too short/high on the table). And if you do both... they'll probably push it! :rofl:

Based on your stroke in the video I think you could handle p1r in .5 pretty easily, if you wanted to go that route. Against a high spin loop like the ones in your video, I find brushing is easier to control the ball. It's against lower spin levels that I bump chop. Because if there is no spin from the ball to bite into your pips with, then it has a tendency to float upward if you try to brush, in my experience.
Author:  Lorre [ 06 Jan 2021, 09:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
infernowasif34 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
The p1r is fairly grippy, and if you only do the bump-chop as I call it (the same style I use with my ox d.tecs for most 'chops') then you'll basically send back only dead balls or very little spin. The low friction d.tecs allows a lot of passive reversal even on a bump chop. So if they loop heavy, the return will be quite a bit of back spin with minimal effort.


I'm not sure if it's the bump chop though (basically how you play with low friction rubbers right?).

Attaching a video soon!

https://youtu.be/86DJ0lYr7ow

I've made some adjustments compared to the video and now I actively try to keep my chops low instead of just putting them on the table like in the vid.


I think I know where the problem lies for you not being compatible with a sponged LP. You hit the ball too high: most of the balls you chop you chop at waist height. You need to chop at hip height. Therefore you need to take the ball lower. Also, you do brush, but you don't accelerate your move depending on the incoming amount of top. The more top your opponent sends, so the slower the ball is due to the spin on it, the more your chopping stroke should start at head height. This results in more speed in your burshing stroke. Adding a bit of wrist can also help with acceleration.
Author:  Roy [ 06 Jan 2021, 16:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
Lorre wrote:
infernowasif34 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
The p1r is fairly grippy, and if you only do the bump-chop as I call it (the same style I use with my ox d.tecs for most 'chops') then you'll basically send back only dead balls or very little spin. The low friction d.tecs allows a lot of passive reversal even on a bump chop. So if they loop heavy, the return will be quite a bit of back spin with minimal effort.


I'm not sure if it's the bump chop though (basically how you play with low friction rubbers right?).

Attaching a video soon!

https://youtu.be/86DJ0lYr7ow

I've made some adjustments compared to the video and now I actively try to keep my chops low instead of just putting them on the table like in the vid.


I think I know where the problem lies for you not being compatible with a sponged LP. You hit the ball too high: most of the balls you chop you chop at waist height. You need to chop at hip height. Therefore you need to take the ball lower. Also, you do brush, but you don't accelerate your move depending on the incoming amount of top. The more top your opponent sends, so the slower the ball is due to the spin on it, the more your chopping stroke should start at head height. This results in more speed in your burshing stroke. Adding a bit of wrist can also help with acceleration.

I agree with Lorre's advice. Try taking chops nearer the floor by spreading your legs and bending. Also, you should use more horizontal blade head - now your blade head is pointing up. And as Lorre said, you chop lacks speed and and adjustment agains different spin.
Author:  infernowasif34 [ 12 Mar 2021, 04:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
Thank you so much Lorre and Roy! That explains it. I have decided to give up on pips after 7 years of training. Stuff that you mentioned, taking the ball low, adjusting strokes depending on spin, and add in basic match strategies and tactics; all of these should've been taught by my coach, but there isn't a single lp specialist coach in the country. I have scoured ooak before multiple times, but it's a big chore to decipher good info from uninformed ones, and applying them, given that I'm still a developing player. Add in the fact that my game sense as an attacker is much better than a defender, I have decided to make the switch. My backhand drive and block is stable. Topspins are inconsistent but I'm working on it. It's so liberating because my coach can literally show me the specifics now. Table Tennis in general has also become more fun because I can apply a variety of tactics, which was absent before due to the fact that lp tactics are relatively scarce compared to inverted in the first place.
Author:  haggisv [ 12 Mar 2021, 13:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: OX vs 0.5/1 mm chopping
Lorre wrote:
I think I know where the problem lies for you not being compatible with a sponged LP. You hit the ball too high: most of the balls you chop you chop at waist height. You need to chop at hip height. Therefore you need to take the ball lower. Also, you do brush, but you don't accelerate your move depending on the incoming amount of top. The more top your opponent sends, so the slower the ball is due to the spin on it, the more your chopping stroke should start at head height. This results in more speed in your burshing stroke. Adding a bit of wrist can also help with acceleration.

That's a gold nugget of advice there Lorre :up: :up: :up: You explained it so well in so few words! :rock: :rock: :rock:
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