OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hey folks, so I'm looking for advice to improve my forehand. (I have been reading Nextlevel's blog which has been helpful). I have a couple ideas about what I need to change, but I'm having trouble making these changes happen. I am getting lessons every two weeks, but thought it would be helpful to have some other experienced eyes on what I'm doing so that I can move my training in the right direction, especially between lessons.

I am just practicing the FH against a very basic ball right now (not too fast or spiny) with the hope of getting good technique engrained then try to apply it to more difficult shots.

The things I see that I'm having trouble correcting:

1) the angle of my bat opens up as I go through my swing, making the contact mostly on the back of the ball.

2) I'm not consistent with where my arm ends up on follow through, so this makes the whole trajectory of the stroke unsure. I've heard and seen different ideas about where this should be, so I guess that confusion is showing up here. Is my trajectory too flat/forward, or does it just depend upon incoming spin?

3) I'm starting my swing really far back, maybe too far to be efficient? If i try to start further forward, I find it hard to initiate the stroke without being early

4). Timing. Sometimes I do a better job of waiting for the ball than others, but I'm curious: am I still too early ALL the time?

5). I feel like I'm put a lot of effort into the stroke, so curious how go about relaxing and making the stroke more easeful while still keeping correct form.

And I'm sure there's way more errant shenanigans going on that I'm not aware of at all, so lay it on me!

Also curious if these camera angles and the slo mo are helpful?

https://vimeo.com/125844364https://vimeo.com/125844498


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Several things to correct the stroke;
You are hitting the ball in front of you. The bat is going across the ball, not over it. That makes the bat finish low instead of by your head.
That imparts sidespin, ( a fade loop). The sidespin does not help bring the ball down.
Start the stroke lower and let the ball come back further before contact.

I agree with Hookshot - very good pointers. Your swing is a bit windhield-wiperish atm.

Also, you are following through under your eyes (actually under your chin!). This has the effect of flattening your swing and then it is very difficult to lift the ball and/or get arc. Always follow through over your eyes and bring your bat to somewhere near above your left eye. When starting looping there is a leap of faith involved - you want throw the ball comfortably into the air and then believe that the topspin will bring the ball down for you. You dont push the ball down manually, the spin does it for you. Check out the pingskills clips on fh looping and the replicate the swing in front of a mirror.

Camera angle is actually quite good for you at this stage. Keep up the good work and be patient. Looping takes quite some time to get right.

Good stuff for putting yourself out there.
Just qualify my response, I'm also a developing player like you but also coaching new beginners that have little technique. Some of my instruction is from what I know, other things is I would be suggesting to try with trial and error.
Thing that I can see are: -
- You are swinging across your body rather than as Carbonman said finishing up by your left eyebrow, I think this is the single biggest thing you should look to change.
- Your wrist breaking and coming up too early in that the bat is pointing to the air when you strike the ball. This could be as hookshot says and you take the ball too early. It will make it difficult for you generate lots of spin and you will find yourself pushing at the ball rather than hitting through it. Perhaps your wrist starts too high and needs to point down more. Your bat handle should be running along the same line as your arm as in a train track as if there is a couple of rubber bands holding your handle to your arm.
- At the start of your backswing the bat is nearly flat, I'd probably rather see it running along the same plane with the angle not really changing much throughout.
- Your forehand is finishing with your right shoulder still lower than your left, it should finish at least square. Your weight transfer doesn't look too bad but it still having your shoulder lower must mean there is more weight to transfer and therefore more power to be gained.

With the backhand I think you should again try have the bat go along the same plane rather than tilting it upward during the shot. By tilting upward you won't be able to create the fine contact required to be able to loop backswing to best get in the habit now.
A better example is the backhand at :43 and a bad one at :17 where you flick the black rubber to the roof.

What you do appear to do well is get into position early with a pause before your swing.

These are my initial thoughts to try however there are more qualified people than myself.

All the best mate, look forward to seeing your progress.

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Hey smacktooth,

Good job. I think you are 75%-95% there.

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=27371&start=75#p292375

I think that post will help you. You need to get your elbow further away from your body. You are making the #1 mistake that players without strong high level coaching make on their forehand - they finish shallow and across the body because their elbow is too close to their body. You need to get the elbow away from your body so you can finish above your eyes. If your ball goes off the table, close your paddle more. Your elbow position is preventing you from achieving the golden triangle that Brett considers the sign of a good loop.

Remember that looping (like most prooer TT strokes) is mostly a forward motion in the direction that you want the ball to go to (as well as an upward motion for looping specifically), and the appearance of finishing across the body is about the body's design and mechanics and not what the stroke should feel like. You should feel like you are stroking the ball forward and the finish is mostly to confirm that your racket took the right path. You shouldn't feel like you are stroking across your body when looping. The belief that it should feel like you are finishing across your body is a common mistake (with a few advanced exceptions for more power) and I struggle to get rid of it, but bad habits die hard.

Good luck with it!

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Hey everybody, thanks so much for taking the time to respond! Great feedback, I hope that I can do it justice!

Only had one robot and one partner session so far since I received y'alls comments. Here's a clip from the partner session yesterday. As you can see, we're a pretty squirrelly practice team right now, but I think the video does still give an idea of where I'm at with the shot. (Please forgive that woosie push in the middle! :p )

I THINK I'm getting my elbow out more, and finishing higher most of the time. BUT, my stroke trajectory is still a big "J", sometimes even a freakin "L". So I need to straighten out the trajectory, and my theory is that if I start with bat lower, that will help.

And of course all the other things you guys mentioned...

to be continued!

https://vimeo.com/126066588


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Better, but,,,,,,,
That is a tennis stroke, work on making the stroke concave, not convex. You will double the spin!
Getting closer!

Haha, the ole MyTT concave vs convex loop haha, gunna get juicy.

Smacktooth, listen to Hookshot if ya know what is good for ya.

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Can someone explain the concave vs. convex thing?

You can see 20 seconds of my loop at the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=077g7_QlpEQ. Which does mine fall under?

Smacktooth my loop technique is far from perfect but if you see my finish position and contact on the ball it might give you an idea of the difference between a "tennis stroke" and a "table tennis stroke". Few more seconds here too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u4BI8TfV58

Usually the advice for looping is as follows:

• Start with a bent arm
• Keep low
• Transfer your weight from your right leg to your left, using the power of your leg muscles to generate the power for the stroke
• Bring your arm through quickly (forward momentum and the snap-closing of the forearm)
• Start with your wrist open a little bit and snap it closed as you contact the ball
• Finish at your eyebrow (there's a little bit of a debate as to which eye though - modern loopers will use so much wrist that they can only finish at their far eyebrow, whereas beginners are usually encouraged to finish at their near eye, i.e. the right eye for a righty)

For me, the most important thing by far is arm speed. You can see in my videos that it's the one thing I do consistently well on my forehand loop. I still don't use enough wrist, I know that, but for me the wrist doesn't make/break a forehand loop. If you bring your arm through quickly, that will generate the spin and the speed. The wrist adds extra spin, control and the ability to counteract your opponent's spin.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Oh also I wanted to mention your grip. Looks to me like your grip is a little too high on the handle and your finger is pointing too far North East when it should be closer to solid East.

That can be down to individual preference so you may not want to change but I find that having my finger more horizontal helps me a lot.

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Dunc,
Very nice, that is NOT a tennis stroke!

Thank you! I would hate to be labelled as a tennis player

Explain the concave vs. convex thing hook? I understand the difference in glass but I'm not sure I get it in a TT stroke...

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Alright I'll work on the concave thing, though it appears to be a bit a joke around here

First thing that pops into my head when I think "concave" swing is "I'm gonna miss the ball!" Although in reality I know this is not the case. So since I've been trying to have a straight trajectory and still end up convex, or J like, maybe if I go more extreme and think convex, that will push it to where it needs to be.

I am a musician by trade, and so have spent many years working on difficult/unfamiliar things in that realm, so I'm constantly comparing that experience to this. The biggest difference/challenge of it I'm noticing is that with music 1) I get instant, auditory feedback on what I'm doing wrong or right, and 2) I can practiceas slowly as I need to at first to get things right. With TT I can't see what I'm doing in the moment of actually making a shot, I have to record it and look after the fact. So even though the shots may go on the table and it seems like a good shot, my form may not be correct. Also, I can practice slowly in the mirror and do it perfectly, but to actually hit the ball there's a certain amount of speed that needs to happen.

I also recognize that I've just spent soooo much more time practicing music, that I'm just much better self analysis in that realm. So maybe in 20 years my feelings about TT practice will shift a bit

Anyway, that's all neither here or there really, just thought it might interesting for others in this process of learning.

On with the training!


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Smacktooth,

Sorry for the late response.

I am in the minority who think that your stroke is largely fine and that you need to get a ball that is more controlled to let it show - your lack of relaxed control is making the stroke wilder than it needs to be as you focus on rallying. Just consistently finish on the same side of your body and avoid using free play drills like this to display your stroke until you have it consistently under control. Practicing hitting a consistently controlled ball (robot, or feeding partner close to the net) at different speeds at different heights to different spots on the table. Again, always finish with the triangle on the same side of your body as your stroke and never across your body to start out. If the ball goes long, close the paddle more. If it is too short, open the paddle more.

People who loop largely with bent arms can't attack slow balls with real power. On the other hand, bent arms allow for shorter strokes with quicker recovery. I am in the long arm stroke group because I am of the view that you can always shorten a large stroke (watch the Chinese players do it), but making a short stroke really powerful is an exercise in futility.

These things take time, but you have done some great work - I apologize for responding late once more.

Great progress!

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Hey everybody, thanks for all the feedback. Though I haven't had time to update this thread, I have been working on it.

Here's the latest video:
https://vimeo.com/128756945
(It's so short because phone battery ran out while filming)

I am trying to start lower, and keep my wrist more relaxed. I think the looser wrist is helping reduce the windshield wiper effect and help me over the ball more. Before I was trying to keep my bat Flat, but that was causing my wrist to tense up a lot and lift up, thusly coming across the back of the ball.

Finish position is still not consistent. I guess a part of that is because I've been receiving conflicting advice about where it should be. Some say above bat above right eye, others say just below left eye...maybe there's not one right answer. My coach said bat doesn't need to come above your eyes.

I also talked to Coach about the whole tennis swing thing, and he said it just takes time to re-pattern, and as long as I'm focusing on it, my swing will eventually shift out of that mode.

In the video I see my right knee doing this funky twist thing, that's me trying to bring my hips into it, stay loose, and also transfer weight from right to left leg. But this is not what I see in the videos, so there must be another way to make the weight transfer without the funky chicken.

Those are my thoughts. Let me know yours if you feel inclined.

Onward we go!