OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 30 Mar 2024, 09:42


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Short Serve
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2021, 22:47 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 22:35
Posts: 9
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Hello
Any info on serve return of serve to FH that barley clears net and when it does it bounces back to servers side. Very hard to reach I am 5'8"

Thankyou for any info


Top
 Profile  
 


 Post subject: Re: Short Serve
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2021, 23:51 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 06 Nov 2009, 04:40
Posts: 1641
Location: Texas, USA
Has thanked: 343 times
Been thanked: 104 times
Blade: 729 HS Champion carbon
FH: Razka X max, black
BH: SavigaV LP 1.0 red/green
mr pips wrote:
Hello
Any info on serve return of serve to FH that barley clears net and when it does it bounces back to servers side. Very hard to reach I am 5'8"

Thankyou for any info


I am shorter than you-it can be a challenge. I also work on that serve some for my own use. IF the serve is high enough you may have time to run around to the right side and smash it for a winner. Otherwise step in with your right foot as far as possible and extend blade by holding at the end. You just need to touch it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Short Serve
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2021, 18:45 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 22:35
Posts: 9
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Vanjr Thanks for reply. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Short Serve
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2021, 05:28 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 02 Jul 2021, 04:20
Posts: 4
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Blade: Viscaria
FH: Flarestrom
BH: 05
mr pips wrote:
Hello
Any info on serve return of serve to FH that barley clears net and when it does it bounces back to servers side. Very hard to reach I am 5'8"

Thankyou for any info


This serve is also known as ghost serve

From ITTF RuleBook
(Partial quote, referring only to this discussion. Let can happen due to many other reasons)
2.9 A LET
2.9.1 The rally shall be a let:
2.9.1.5 if the receiver is in wheelchair owing to a physical disability and in service the ball, provided that the service is otherwise correct,
2.9.1.5.1 after touching the receiver’s court returns in the direction of the net;
2.9.1.5.2 comes to rest on the receiver's court;
2.9.1.5.3 in singles leaves the receiver’s court after touching it by either of its sidelines


See this video at PingSunday website
https://pingsunday.com/comeback-serve-in-table-tennis/

This is a very difficult issue. Under current rules, a server has the right to prevent the receiver from attacking their serve. So you cannot completely eliminate all heavy backspin serves, but ball returning to server’s side is a little ridiculous & lot more ridiculous for (small and or short) children & para players, who cannot reach the ball at all

On the other hand, short serves and third ball attacks are very anti-spectator but at least 60 to 70% matches are this way now, if not more, with very short rallies. The 40mm ball was supposedly addressing it but now with more powerful rackets, players are hitting the ball faster & with more top-spin leading to errors. Longer rallies are more fun for the spectator & best from the viewpoint of promoting table-tennis. Under Liha (modified sandpaper, mostly in Philippines) rules, the rally only starts after 3 returns I think, which is a bit too ridiculous on the other end of the spectrum.

One solution is to require all serves to cross the end line or its imaginary extension thereof above table level (maybe also inside the extensions of the sidelines as well). This would take away some advantage to the server but could initiate more longer rallies & even some defensive lobbing and chopping rallies (I know if you love third ball attacks . you would hate this, but highest & pro levels, presentation & marketing is the highest priority. I know it does not matter that much at lower levels) . But this would eliminate the advantage & beauty of short serves.

My solution would be to have the even numbered games to have only long serves as above. In odd numbered games, there is no such requirements except that maybe the second bounce (on receiver side , if allowed) must be well within the reach of the receiver. But I am not sure how this can be enforced.
I am suggesting whole games to be of same type ( long serve only or any serve) because it is easy from viewpoint of keeping score. If you alternate in same game (long or any) it is harder to track since many players struggle even keeping score or who is the server.
Such a solution preserves the beauty of all serves and skill required but also makes at least about half the match more fun for spectators.
Also this does not need to be the requirement across all level of play. This can be introduced and tested only at the professional level & highest national levels. Then can be adjusted for lower levels of play with option of not using this option at all at the discretion of league & tournament directors (maybe based on majority vote within a club or region etc).

Regardless, using the comeback serve (shown at video above) in an actual match over and over is just way too ridiculous & leaves the sport in a bad light & can be considered unsportsmanlike conduct & disrespectful.

As a comparison, I may be wrong but the impact of serves seems to be far less in say badminton or pickleball & maybe that is why they are more popular ? Tennis is a different story. Looks like they tried to eliminate the impact of serves by moving away from grass courts but they do still have grass court events. Sounds like the hybrid approach I am suggesting but for alternating games (In a funny way, like having half of a tennis court grass & other half clay LOL)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Short Serve
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2021, 08:00 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 08 Apr 2015, 11:50
Posts: 1515
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 188 times
Usually that serve has to develop slowly. If it was fast it would not bounce back to their side. And the people I have played who use it also have to have a fairly extreme grip, so it's not a surprise serve after the first one. I can usually run around the fh side and smack it off their fh side. If I can do that at most twice there are no more ghost serves for the rest of the match.

I have never played anyone who could show ghost serve during their toss and then at the last minute change it to a long fast serve. That would be nasty.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Short Serve
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2021, 21:38 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 22:35
Posts: 9
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 0 time
boosted wrote:
mr pips wrote:
Hello
Any info on serve return of serve to FH that barley clears net and when it does it bounces back to servers side. Very hard to reach I am 5'8"

Thankyou for any info


This serve is also known as ghost serve

From ITTF RuleBook
(Partial quote, referring only to this discussion. Let can happen due to many other reasons)
2.9 A LET
2.9.1 The rally shall be a let:
2.9.1.5 if the receiver is in wheelchair owing to a physical disability and in service the ball, provided that the service is otherwise correct,
2.9.1.5.1 after touching the receiver’s court returns in the direction of the net;
2.9.1.5.2 comes to rest on the receiver's court;
2.9.1.5.3 in singles leaves the receiver’s court after touching it by either of its sidelines


See this video at PingSunday website
https://pingsunday.com/comeback-serve-in-table-tennis/

This is a very difficult issue. Under current rules, a server has the right to prevent the receiver from attacking their serve. So you cannot completely eliminate all heavy backspin serves, but ball returning to server’s side is a little ridiculous & lot more ridiculous for (small and or short) children & para players, who cannot reach the ball at all

On the other hand, short serves and third ball attacks are very anti-spectator but at least 60 to 70% matches are this way now, if not more, with very short rallies. The 40mm ball was supposedly addressing it but now with more powerful rackets, players are hitting the ball faster & with more top-spin leading to errors. Longer rallies are more fun for the spectator & best from the viewpoint of promoting table-tennis. Under Liha (modified sandpaper, mostly in Philippines) rules, the rally only starts after 3 returns I think, which is a bit too ridiculous on the other end of the spectrum.

One solution is to require all serves to cross the end line or its imaginary extension thereof above table level (maybe also inside the extensions of the sidelines as well). This would take away some advantage to the server but could initiate more longer rallies & even some defensive lobbing and chopping rallies (I know if you love third ball attacks . you would hate this, but highest & pro levels, presentation & marketing is the highest priority. I know it does not matter that much at lower levels) . But this would eliminate the advantage & beauty of short serves.

My solution would be to have the even numbered games to have only long serves as above. In odd numbered games, there is no such requirements except that maybe the second bounce (on receiver side , if allowed) must be well within the reach of the receiver. But I am not sure how this can be enforced.
I am suggesting whole games to be of same type ( long serve only or any serve) because it is easy from viewpoint of keeping score. If you alternate in same game (long or any) it is harder to track since many players struggle even keeping score or who is the server.
Such a solution preserves the beauty of all serves and skill required but also makes at least about half the match more fun for spectators.
Also this does not need to be the requirement across all level of play. This can be introduced and tested only at the professional level & highest national levels. Then can be adjusted for lower levels of play with option of not using this option at all at the discretion of league & tournament directors (maybe based on majority vote within a club or region etc).

Regardless, using the comeback serve (shown at video above) in an actual match over and over is just way too ridiculous & leaves the sport in a bad light & can be considered unsportsmanlike conduct & disrespectful.

As a comparison, I may be wrong but the impact of serves seems to be far less in say badminton or pickleball & maybe that is why they are more popular ? Tennis is a different story. Looks like they tried to eliminate the impact of serves by moving away from grass courts but they do still have grass court events. Sounds like the hybrid approach I am suggesting but for alternating games (In a funny way, like having half of a tennis court grass & other half clay LOL)


Thanks for all the info on Comeback serve


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group