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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 01:30 
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I know of one umpire who banned a player for an OX rubber that was not on the LARC.
What I mean is that there are only 2 rubbers listed on current LARC as OX.
Butterfly Feint OX and Yasaka Elfrark OX

So then, if you remove a sponge from a rubber that is listed on the LARC but NOT as an OX version, you then cannot use it in an OX form by removing the sponge or buying the same rubber in OX version (because the OX version is not listed for this specific rubber on the LARC).
This is not my suggestion. But this was that umpire's interpretation of the rule.

So what is your opinion on this ? My opinion is that ITTF should make this a little more clearer


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 01:53 
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I think it's quite clear to most players and umpires, that you can buy rubbers in OX and that they're perfectly legal. THE LARC really only shows topsheets, so pimple rubbers can be used with or without a sponge.

I'm not sure why the two rubbers you mentioned are listed separately on the LARC, but I suspect it's because the OX version is different to the version with sponge (probably has a thicker or reinforced base sheet), requiring separate approval.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 03:04 
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Thanks. However there are three problems as below

haggisv wrote:
I think it's quite clear to most players and umpires, .


Don't mean to be rude but when you say "I think" it only says to me you are not sure, regradless of whether or not you are a certified umpire
Also the keyword is "most" which means not all umpires. The very reason I asked this is because there are few umpires who honestly do not know or not sure but they can claim that it is illegal. There are few other umpires who look for excuses to pick on any player just so they can and in some cases just pips players. I have been around for a while in this sport & speak from experience. I agree most umpires are cool but it is the few bad apples that cause problems. Sometimes you drive 100s of miles to play in a tournament after training for weeks and the umpire does this to you. It had not happened to me but had happened to others. What can they do ? Sue the club & umpire ? REALLY

haggisv wrote:
that you can buy rubbers in OX and that they're perfectly legal. .

Just because I can buy a rubber does not make it necessarily "perfectly legal". As you know there are 100s of brands rubbers you can buy but not on current LARC at all.

That is why I said ITTF should make it a little more clear.

I will give you another example. How far close to the edge of the racket that a rubber has to be ? 1mm ? 2mm ? 5mm ?
I have seen cases where a player went from a compact blade to a semi-large blade and to save money he moved the rubber from compact to semi-large blade and the umpire refused to allow the racket.
How about on a penhold racket ? I have seen some rackets (in tournaments) that only have rubber in the top half of the blade on reverse side. I know they make allowance for fingers extending but how far is legal ? One umpire may accept it but another umpire on a power trip may not.


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 05:05 
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https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads ... stions.pdf

For now, ITTF does allow a player to use sponge sheet of his (her) own choice.
This is a misleading and unreasonable decision by ITTF, on wihch we strOngly disagree ;((


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 16:21 
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A couple more points. Feint OX is indeed listed separately on the LARC (if you look at the headstamp, it actually has "OX" molded into the topsheet - they never meant to sell this with sponge, and I think it's a holdover from the old days - I wonder if it's got a cloth backing like the old Orthodox has) but it isn't the only OX long pips Butterfly sells (Feint Long III is also available without sponge). So basing one's argument on that one listing in the LARC is treading on thin ice.

What to do about rogue Karen umpires (like Igor)? Maybe write a letter to USTTA or ITTF to get a clarification. Or get one from a high-ranking umpire (who runs, say, the US Open). Once it arrives, post in public forums. Also keep a copy in your gym bag when you go to tournaments.

As for rubber not going all the way to the edge of the racket - in the old days bats didn't have squared-off edges. The edges of the wood were rounded - the rubber stopped where the curve began. I suppose if you were Marty Reisman, you could play trick shots with the edge of the bat, but most people aren't and would be likely to lose the point. In any case, no one used to care. These days, it seems, any slight blemish to the rubber, even at the edge of the blade, must either be hidden by use of a marker pen, or won't be tolerated and you have to change your rubber. So your mileage may vary. I still think this is nitpicking.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 22:56 
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Quote:
...rogue Karen umpires (like Igor)...

In all fairness, this time Igor's statement supports the general consensus that it is allowed, thus complying with ITTF's decision, even though he clearly states that he does not agree on that decision.

As for that umpire decision, there is no OX rubber classification in the LARC. There are "out" and "long" which are allowed with or without sponge, and "in" and "anti" which are only allowed as "sandwich" (with sponge).

Three rubbers are specified as "orthodox" by name, the Butterfly "Orthodox" and the two already mentioned where the abbreviation "OX" is part of the name. Using those with sponge may be construed as wrong, though I doubt it. The rubber's name has no bearing on its classification.

Removing sponge from any pimples-out sandwich rubber (classified as "out" or "long") is within the rules' limitations. Pimples-in rubbers are approved as such, and pimples-in is only allowed in a sandwich configuration, so removing sponge from a rubber classified as "in" or "anti" does render it illegal. There is no minimum sponge thickness, though, so as long as you have something between and you don't use the "orthodox" (pimpled) side as a playing surface, in principle you are good to go. In practice, the referee is boss and the umpire is god, so you may want to bring a second baton to keep you safe. ;)

I have had my share of incompetent umpires, but always got a concession (by umpire/referee opinion or by agreement with opponent) to the effect that "your stuff is illegal but on your level of play nobody will care" so I never suffered, and thus I never had any opportunity to argue the point.

One claimed that my blade was illegal because it did not have the ITTF stamp. (Have you ever seen a blade with that stamp on it?) He is now the region manager (level below national) for our table tennis federation...
(He is doing a great job in that position, btw.)


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